@denis said:
[...] So would a pre-eq table be.
Err ... "pre-eq" in the sense of ...?
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
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In the sense that to my ears (and to my FFT analyser), flute 2 sounds richer than flute 1. So even if I adjust the volume so that they play at the same level, flute 1 is overwhelmed by flute 2. So either I need to "pre-eq" one of the flutes to more or less match the other one, or I need to be very careful when using both instruments together.
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Oops... Sorry, I wasn't very clear with my explanation. Yes, these two instruments are different and that is surely their purposes!
However I found at many occasions that it proved difficult to make them blend when both played together (to me, they sound more like two different takes rather than two similar instruments playing together, flute 2 being always very dominant).
Anyway, I hope that the team who developed the "Natural volume" in MIR would be kind enough to help with a volume compensation table.
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All smart assness aside [:P] some instruments, especially brass, are sensitive timbre wise to volume changes. These changes in timbre have an effect on how natural the instrument sounds when trying to emulate a real orchestra. For example, if you're trying to get horns playing in mp to sound like ff by simply turning the volume up you not going to have much success. Instead of getting something that sounds like ff horns, you'll get something that sounds like mp horns with the volume inappropriately cranked way up.
Just something I learned back in school.
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Should I understand that VSL don't want to help their customer achieve the best result possible with their products, in the same vein as they have denied their customers some depth presets with Vienna Suite convolution or powerpan presets for usual ensembles?
I really look forward to hearing from you.
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Now come on, no need to get snappish. If we "didn't want to help", I wouldn't sit here writing answers in our forum at 11:30 PM.
As the guy who created 500 or more _hand-tailored_ Vienna Suite-presets for _individual_ VSL-instruments, I can assure you that I scratched my head for days and days thinking of _meaningful_ ways to implement PowerPan- or Convolution Reverb presets for imaginary mixes. - Everything I came up with was either meaningless (mind you: We talk about settings for a mix that doesn't exist yet), or so complex that a new product was due (it's called "Vienna MIR", by the way).
Good night,
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library -
Dietz, I know it's called MIR and costs an extra 795EUR, fine by me. But it is not available for Mac. So it's of absolutely nouse as far as I am concerned.
Now you talked about a very interesting feature called "Natural Volume" which is only available with this wonderful piece of modern technology called MIR. But after I read one of your previous answers, I understand that VSL don't want to help users achieve it if they don't buy MIR... and a PC. This is why I have the bitter feeling that VSL don't want to help their customers get the best result possible with their products. This isn't the first time it happens.
And after all, all we ask for is a "volume compensation table" or call it whatever. Not a big deal, or is it?!
All I want is to have a great time composing orchestral music and hearing it played back on my computer. All I've done for the last 18 months is trying to figure out a way to do it, asking for help and advice on the forums and elsewhere, getting new tools such as VSL Suite for this purpose in the view of making realistic mockups with VSL samples. But to no success so far.
Alright, you can argue that I might be a bit dumb, that everybody should be able to get the best out of VSL products very easily. Sorry, I'm no sound engineer or producer, and I have no interest in becoming one. I'm just learning how to compose, arrange and orchestrate. It's difficult enough.
Unless I missed them (in which case, yes, I'm an idiot given the amount of time I spent researching it), I can't find any tutorials on the VSL website explaining how to use VSL Suite and VEPro to achieve the different depths in a room, no walkthrough the impulse responses coming with VSL Suite (What are these rooms? What's the difference between Studio 2, Studio 2 Warm, Studio 2 Wide, Studio 2 Wide Warm for example? Can I use all these impulses in one mix? And for which purpose?). Apart from "this button does this, that button does that", I cannot see any documentation regarding the so-straightforward-but-not-for-everyone-here-I'm-afraid Powerpan plugin, anything that explains when to use the pre and post balances, why it's coming as a cone of what looks like 120 degrees rather than a semi-circle representing a stage, how to apply it to the different instruments to achieve successful and realistic panning. And of course, I cannot find any description of the difference of volume between one instrument and the other (but this has been discussed above).
Now, this isn't snappy: it's just a fact. And I'm very disappointed and frustrated.
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What's really been helping me in this respect is the Special Edition Demo by Christian Kardeis, it was a good sounding starting point, with twenty-something tracks, almost full orchestra, already properly mixed. It can be downloaded for a multitude of DAW's in the User Area at USER AREA > OVERVIEW > Videos > Training Videos. Don't let the heading "training videos" fool you, the project files are really there. Another thing I learned is that when I change the reverb settings, for example to another room, I most of the time feel I also have to make further changes to the mixer levels, both the bus sends to the reverb and the direct levels of the instruments (or instrument sections). This is even more so, if I give each instrument section its own early reflections using separate reverb plug-ins, for example to make the brass in the back really epic sounding, or not. So for me, a volume compensation table would only make sense as a starting point. I cannot imagine I would rely on it for a final mix. If I could, I would probably rely on templates and presets by Hetoreyn or Beat Kaufmann.
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Hello Denis
Beat Kaufmann...just seen my name...
You seem to have the problem that you can't find the correct balance between brass and strings, strings and woodwinds or what else.
If you use this function within MIR and you open a violin with its natural volume it plays -16dB (assumption) less powerful than without this function.
Open now a flute > -12dB. These two instruments shall play now a duet... we will feel that they play too quiet because this natural volume
makes sense together with a whole orchestra (Timpani, Fanfare Trumpets etc.)
DG and others (above) said in their replies: Use the faders...
I'll give you a little help which can make this "finding of the balance between the sections of the instruments" much easier:
Let's assume you have some string instruments some woodwinds and some brass instruments.
1. Open (beside the instruments) a BUS for each section (click on the "+" symbol, below on the left within VEPro) >
- BUS Strings
- BUS Woodwinds
- BUS Brass
2. Route all...
- Strings to (through) the BUS Strings
- Woodwinds to the BUS Woodwinds
- Brass instruments to the BUS Brass
3. Balance each instrument within the sections by switching each BUS to "solo"
4. Finally you will be able to find the balance between Strings Woodwinds and Brass with "only" three faders and your ears.
Hope that helped a bit.
I wish you a lot of success on your way to god results [H]
- Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/ -
Thank you for all these info Beat! This is more or less the way I am already working.
I just wish some tool did all this for me. You see, I am using the samples to learn about the colour of the sounds / chords (ie. for example violins+flute+oboe vs. violas+flute+clarinet). So if I need to do all the mix myself, I feel that it defeats the purpose as I am creating the colour by changing the levels, eqs, etc...
Now there's Mir SE, which seems to be what I was looking for. But it only works on Windows systems, so it is of no use for me.
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Going to chime in here...
One of the great strengths of VSL, IMO, is that it mirrors the actual volume of the orchestral instruments in a true symphonic setting. There are natural reasons why string sections are so large compared to either the brass or woodwinds - a single stringed instrument simply really does sound much softer than a single woodwind instrument or brass instrument.
Compared to some of the other commercial products, to me anyway, VSL has always sounded much more realistic in that regard. No single product is the proverbial "Swiss army knife" - other products strengths lie in different areas. Particularly for traditional orchestral composition, as well as for learning the details of it, VSL is ideal (some VSL instruments will give a more "Hollywood" or epic sound as well).
It is worth noting that historically, string quartets have a literature all their own, as do woodwind quintets. OTOH, the number of septets/octets of mixed strings and winds are relatively few. Humorously, I know of only one piece with the following orchestration: two violins, bass, two trumpets and two French horns. I have never heard it, and have absolutely no idea how it could work (it was written by Dittersdorf).
