Vienna Symphonic Library Forum
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  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD
    [quote=denis]Alright, so the difference of level between instruments is something that everybody experiences. In a way, I'm reassured as I thought I was doing something wrong.

    This option is available as optional feature within Vienna MIR, called "Natural Volume".

    Technically, the reason for the seemingly "wrong" volumes is very simple: In digital audio, there is an absolute maximum a signal can achieve volume-wise, called 0 dB FS (for "Full Scale"). If you go over this value, a A/D-converter will distort heavily during recording.

    Now you might argue that we should adjust our preamps and converters to the loudest possible signal and leave these setting alone. The problem is: As soon as you leave the area of optimal gain settings, the recording will degrade in the analogue domain as well as the digital domain. So we head for the optimal resolution of (more or less) each sample.

    You might say that these differences should be reflected by the mapping and programming within a Vienna Instrument. Although this would be possible, it would lead to the situation that the violin would have to be set to -20 dB (or even less) to achieve the necessary headroom for (say) a TamTam. Quite understandably, most users would complain why the violin is sooooo quiet (... and as a matter of fact this is the only complaint we get on a regular basis regarding Vienna MIR ;-) ... how good that "Natural Volume" can be switched off).

    The good thing is that you are able to write a concerto for flautando violins and can rest assured that the recored samples are pristine. 8-)

    HTH,

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • D
    D
    Hi Dietz,

    Thanks for the enlightenment!

    Now... MIR isn't available on Mac. That would solve all my problems (and probably bring new ones). So for the time being, I need to work with VEPro alone.

    As you seem very aware of the differences of volume and the recording techniques, could you give me some hints to achieve this "Natural volume" feature with VEPro and VSL Suite? I'm sure (actually, I hope) that it would be fairly straightforward to do with the recording/production notes of the VSL instruments.

    Best,
    Denis
  • I
    I

    Yes, a table of volume compensations to get a good balance (such as using the MIR natural setting) would be greatly appreciated. Then we can incorporate this into our VEPro templates. I have already been doing this, but feel I haven't got it right yet.

    Cheers,

    Tom
  • D
    D
    A volume compensation table would indeed be an outstanding addition to our arsenal!
    So would a pre-eq table be.
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD
    last edited
    last edited

    @denis said:

    [...] So would a pre-eq table be.

     Err ... "pre-eq" in the sense of ...?

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • D
    D
    In the sense that to my ears (and to my FFT analyser), flute 2 sounds richer than flute 1. So even if I adjust the volume so that they play at the same level, flute 1 is overwhelmed by flute 2. So either I need to "pre-eq" one of the flutes to more or less match the other one, or I need to be very careful when using both instruments together.
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD

    Hm ... I don't think that there's an EQ-setting that will make Flute 1 sound like Flute 2 (or vice versa). Actually I'm sure that they were made with the intention to sound different.

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • D
    D
    Oops... Sorry, I wasn't very clear with my explanation. Yes, these two instruments are different and that is surely their purposes!

    However I found at many occasions that it proved difficult to make them blend when both played together (to me, they sound more like two different takes rather than two similar instruments playing together, flute 2 being always very dominant).

    Anyway, I hope that the team who developed the "Natural volume" in MIR would be kind enough to help with a volume compensation table.
  • A
    A

    There's something called volume and faders.  Use them.  ;-)
  • D
    D
    Thanks Animus, that was incredibly useful.
  • A
    A

    You are welcome.  :-)  Just something I learned back in school; if something wasn't loud enough just turn it up.
  • J
    J

    All smart assness aside [:P] some instruments, especially brass, are sensitive timbre wise to volume changes. These changes in timbre have an effect on how natural the instrument sounds when trying to emulate a real orchestra.  For example, if you're trying to get horns playing in mp to sound like ff by simply turning the volume up you not going to have much success.  Instead of getting something that sounds like ff horns, you'll get something that sounds like mp horns with the volume inappropriately cranked way up. 

    Just something I learned back in school. 
  • A
    A

    oooh snap!

    [:P]
  • D
    D
    Dietz, anyone else at VSL,
    any chance to get your input and help to achieve Natural Volume without using MIR?
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD
    [quote=denis]Dietz, anyone else at VSL,

    Right now, we have no plans to separate this feature from MIR.

    Kind regards,

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • D
    D
    Should I understand that VSL don't want to help their customer achieve the best result possible with their products, in the same vein as they have denied their customers some depth presets with Vienna Suite convolution or powerpan presets for usual ensembles?
    I really look forward to hearing from you.
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD

    Now come on, no need to get snappish. If we "didn't want to help", I wouldn't sit here writing answers in our forum at 11:30 PM.

    As the guy who created 500 or more _hand-tailored_ Vienna Suite-presets for _individual_ VSL-instruments, I can assure you that I scratched my head for days and days thinking of _meaningful_ ways to implement PowerPan- or Convolution Reverb presets for imaginary mixes. - Everything I came up with was either meaningless (mind you: We talk about settings for a mix that doesn't exist yet), or so complex that a new product was due (it's called "Vienna MIR", by the way).

    Good night,

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • D
    D
    Dietz, I know it's called MIR and costs an extra 795EUR, fine by me. But it is not available for Mac. So it's of absolutely nouse as far as I am concerned.

    Now you talked about a very interesting feature called "Natural Volume" which is only available with this wonderful piece of modern technology called MIR. But after I read one of your previous answers, I understand that VSL don't want to help users achieve it if they don't buy MIR... and a PC. This is why I have the bitter feeling that VSL don't want to help their customers get the best result possible with their products. This isn't the first time it happens.

    And after all, all we ask for is a "volume compensation table" or call it whatever. Not a big deal, or is it?!

    All I want is to have a great time composing orchestral music and hearing it played back on my computer. All I've done for the last 18 months is trying to figure out a way to do it, asking for help and advice on the forums and elsewhere, getting new tools such as VSL Suite for this purpose in the view of making realistic mockups with VSL samples. But to no success so far.
    Alright, you can argue that I might be a bit dumb, that everybody should be able to get the best out of VSL products very easily. Sorry, I'm no sound engineer or producer, and I have no interest in becoming one. I'm just learning how to compose, arrange and orchestrate. It's difficult enough.

    Unless I missed them (in which case, yes, I'm an idiot given the amount of time I spent researching it), I can't find any tutorials on the VSL website explaining how to use VSL Suite and VEPro to achieve the different depths in a room, no walkthrough the impulse responses coming with VSL Suite (What are these rooms? What's the difference between Studio 2, Studio 2 Warm, Studio 2 Wide, Studio 2 Wide Warm for example? Can I use all these impulses in one mix? And for which purpose?). Apart from "this button does this, that button does that", I cannot see any documentation regarding the so-straightforward-but-not-for-everyone-here-I'm-afraid Powerpan plugin, anything that explains when to use the pre and post balances, why it's coming as a cone of what looks like 120 degrees rather than a semi-circle representing a stage, how to apply it to the different instruments to achieve successful and realistic panning. And of course, I cannot find any description of the difference of volume between one instrument and the other (but this has been discussed above).

    Now, this isn't snappy: it's just a fact. And I'm very disappointed and frustrated.
  • D
    D

    Just pull the faders down for the instruments that are too loud for the mix. There you go. Fixed. And at no cost. [;)]

    DG
  • B
    B
    What's really been helping me in this respect is the Special Edition Demo by Christian Kardeis, it was a good sounding starting point, with twenty-something tracks, almost full orchestra, already properly mixed. It can be downloaded for a multitude of DAW's in the User Area at USER AREA > OVERVIEW > Videos > Training Videos. Don't let the heading "training videos" fool you, the project files are really there. Another thing I learned is that when I change the reverb settings, for example to another room, I most of the time feel I also have to make further changes to the mixer levels, both the bus sends to the reverb and the direct levels of the instruments (or instrument sections). This is even more so, if I give each instrument section its own early reflections using separate reverb plug-ins, for example to make the brass in the back really epic sounding, or not. So for me, a volume compensation table would only make sense as a starting point. I cannot imagine I would rely on it for a final mix. If I could, I would probably rely on templates and presets by Hetoreyn or Beat Kaufmann.