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@William said:
That is interesting lgrohn. Though I do not see any answer to what the picture has to do with the music. Are you saying that the mere timbre of the instrument is the only relationship to the picture? Or does the software translate visual parameters of the picture into tonal/rhythmic variations?
Because music doesn't have any semantics "translation" in real sense is not possible. But selecting instruments, tempo, maximum note lengt, deepness of harmony and also using any possible scale (if not all pitch classes are not used) gives a lot of possibilities. Still without writing any notes.
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I agree that images do not have semantics as strictly defined in language study, but they do have meanings that can be "translated" in similar ways to what you are doing with a computer. In fact, the "translation" of music into images or vice versa is an entire artform in itself, with masters such as Mary Ellen Bute, Len Lye, Oskar Fishinger (who was imitated in Disney's Fantasia), and Jordan Belson whose films have just recently become available on DVD. The Center for Visual Music is releasing a number of these abstract films that directly relate images to music in an attempt at "translation."
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What I find interesting about the so-called "translation" is that one can set up similarities based upon (admittedly somewhat arbitrarily selected) parameters such as wavelength - blue color corresponding to higher pitches, red color to lower; forms of movement such as snake-like sinous motions corresponding to close slurred legato notes; staccato notes heard during short bursts of light, etc. It is of course not a direct relationship, but nevertheless forms an interesting artistic pursuit in the attempt at defining potential relationships between audio/visual elements.
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@William said:
I agree that images do not have semantics as strictly defined in language study, but they do have meanings that can be "translated" in similar ways to what you are doing with a computer. In fact, the "translation" of music into images or vice versa is an entire artform in itself, with masters such as Mary Ellen Bute, Len Lye, Oskar Fishinger (who was imitated in Disney's Fantasia), and Jordan Belson whose films have just recently become available on DVD. The Center for Visual Music is releasing a number of these abstract films that directly relate images to music in an attempt at "translation."
I said that "music doesn't have semantics". Paintings and photos do have if not too abstract. Music doesn't have any meaning except cultural cliches/conventions. Film music is different, because rhythm can be used. In worst cases it is just "Mickey Mouse" correnpondence using special sounds, rubato etc. Most of Disney animation belong to this cathegory. It had its time but...Here you find an example of a bad modern use:
http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/showthread.php?t=14523
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@William said:
What I find interesting about the so-called "translation" is that one can set up similarities based upon (admittedly somewhat arbitrarily selected) parameters such as wavelength - blue color corresponding to higher pitches, red color to lower; forms of movement such as snake-like sinous motions corresponding to close slurred legato notes; staccato notes heard during short bursts of light, etc.
Haven't seen any good examples of this. My system is mainly using colours for volumes and it hasa special role in the filtering process.
PS. Synesthetic people have various colour/pitch correspondences, no "standard" exists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia
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1916 : The Optophonic Piano was created by the Russian Futurist painter Vladimir Baranoff Rossiné (1888-1944). The Optophonic Piano generated sounds and projected revolving patterns onto a wall or ceiling by directing a bright light through a series revolving painted glass disks (painted by Rossiné), filters, mirrors and lenses. The keyboard controlled the combination of the various filters and disks. The variations in opacity of the painted disk and filters were picked up by a photo-electric cell controlling the pitch of a single oscillator. The instrument produced a continuous varying tone which--accompanied by the rotating kaleidascopic projections--was used by Vladimir Rossiné at exhibitions and public events. (Sources: Keyboard Museum, Historie du synthe)
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@William said:
Your conception that "music has no meaning except for cliches" is false. If that were true then there would be no difference between music and white noise.
Creating emotions/feelings doesn't mean that music, paintings etc. should have semantics. Old music is full of cultural cliches making it easiar to be "get". But yes. To many people music from other cultures is just a kind of "noise". That actually proves my point.
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No it does not. It simply proves that the meaning inherent in another kind of music is not discernible to someone ignorant of that culture. But that is not at all the same thing as meaningless cliches.
You have made it clear that you - with your highly intellectual approach to music - think that all meaning other than intellectualism - i.e. deterministic, mechanistic linear thought - is not meaning at all. In that you are profoundly mistaken. Half ot human history consists of other forms of meaning. And they are not reducible to "cultural cliches."
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You have made it clear that you - with your highly intellectual approach to music - think that all meaning other than intellectualism - i.e. deterministic, mechanistic linear thought - is not meaning at all. In that you are profoundly mistaken. Half ot human history consists of other forms of meaning. And they are not reducible to "cultural cliches."
Agreed.
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Hi Guys, Interesting thread. Is VSL orchestration a new art form? Not entirely. I think of past writers of, say, fiction, writing with pen and ink, then the typewriter, and now the computer. I suspect the writer-by-hand did a lot more editing in his head than today's writer on a computer. The process has changed, the work less so. The marvel is looking backwards--so much early artists did without modern contrivances. I'd like to ad a few points to your discussion, starting with a brief description of how I got to VSL. For the most part I play bass--have for the past thirty years--mostly meat and potato gigs, with the occasional plum, like playing Carnegie Hall with Tammy Wynette and Merle Haggard. I have no musical training, other than showing up at a gig, establishing what key a piece is in, and listening like crazy. Eventually, I became reasonably adept at many styles of music. Beyond all that, I've always had a passion for orchestral sound, especially strings. I gobbled up the Korg M4 when it first came out--would get back from my gigs, put the headphones on, and play those early string patches till the wee hours. A Fostex eight track followed, then the Korg Trident and Trinity rack mounts. When my girlfriend died, I wrote an album for her, using those Korg patches with names like "Arctic Sunset," "Silver Steel," etc. It all worked, but it was light years away from what's now possible. VSL samples allow me to realize a lifelong dream, a simple one-- get the music out of my head to where it can be listened to by others, and do it convincingly, without bringing in a gaggle of buddy musicians to get it right. This is where the VSL magic is. Music that would have never been written or heard by others is being composed and recorded world-wide by like minded composers of all levels of expertise, who find themselves dazzled by what's now possible. What a fertile field for new music! Last week, out of nowhere, I wrote a piece that might have been on a Herb Albert and the Tijuana Brass album circa 1962. Where did that come from? I never really listened to those guys, other than the "Lonely Bull" type stuff that made the radio when I was a kid. It came from transferring a cello part to trumpet, sensing the piece had a Spanish vibe, and going from the there to make it happen. If all I had to work with, was something like Korg's "Arctic Sunset" patch, I don't think I would have seen the possibilities, and that, for me, is the point. Samples open up horizons not just on a technical level, but an inspirational one as well. I can't wait to go back and re-record some of my old pieces, which for the most part sit on dusty cassettes. Equally satisfying is the notion that with VSL I'll be coming up with new music I never would have otherwise. Samples will never really take the place of live instruments, but is that an issue? The fact that sample recording allows composers of all stripes to flesh out and develop their material on their own seems reason enough to welcome this new musical method onto the stage.
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@Tom23 said:
Is VSL orchestration a new art form? Not entirely. I think of past writers of, say, fiction, writing with pen and ink, then the typewriter, and now the computer. I suspect the writer-by-hand did a lot more editing in his head than today's writer on a computer. The process has changed, the work less so. The marvel is looking backwards--so much early artists did without modern contrivances.Definitely no "new art form". The analogy could perhaps be real instruments/VSL vs. oil painting/acryl painting:
wiki:
"Acrylic paint is fast-drying paint containing pigment suspended in an acrylic polymer emulsion. Acrylic paints can be diluted with water, but become water-resistant when dry. Depending on how much the paint is diluted (with water) or modified with acrylic gels, mediums, or pastes, the finished acrylic painting can resemble a watercolor or an oil painting, or have its own unique characteristics not attainable with the other media."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrylic_paint
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@William said:
and Jordan Belson whose films have just recently become available on DVD. The Center for Visual Music is releasing a number of these abstract films that directly relate images to music in an attempt at "translation."
Translation? Those are just animations. Couldn't find any music. Any links for music online?
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My use of quotations indicates that the word is not exact. Jordan Belson is not animation. Everything he does is real-time, and he wished to avoid the imposition of movement upon image that animation involves. Also, I realize those are films from music, not the reverse, but they are obviously related, and in fact the thing that is most interesting is what happens when film images and music come from one source, completely unified.
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I really agree with Tom23 about the "magic of VSL" - it is truly magical in Arthur C. Clarke's concept of "sufficiently advanced technology being indistinguishable form magic." Also, the idea that this magic allows music to exist - AUDIBLY instead of as a silent score sitting in a drawer - that would never exist otherwise. What a fantastic creation!
BTW playing bass for thirty years is definitely training... [:D]
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"from music" - an interpretation in images FROM MUSIC that already exists.
"related" - there are many direct audio-visual relationships in the films. That was the whole point in making them.
"from one source" - that is my own ideal of image-music creation, coming from a single artistic inspiration in a way that Wagner dreamed opera could fulfill but which film can go far beyond. If one artist creates both the film and the music it is the ideal, but also can happen in rare cases with a composer who is perfectly suited tempermentally and artistically to a filmmaker's work, such as Hitchcock and Herrmann, Kieslowski and Preisner, or perhaps Burton and Elfman.
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After reading through all of the responses to William's original question I must say the conversations have been, to say the least, interesting. Most of the debates seem to focus on whether or not the phenomenon that is VSL merely helps composers realize internal orchestral scores (heard internally in the traditional sense), or changes the way composers think about orchestral (symphonic) music, hence allowing composers to tread uncharted waters compared to traditional orchestral writing. In and of itself, VSL is not an art form. It is software. VSL is an incredible tool, but as with anything computer related, the software is at the mercy (and the talent) of the user (a human being).
Can VSL allow composers to create a new art form? Will VSL allow composers to usher in a new musical epoch? This can only happen when VSL or something like it is used to create a new art form. Software, and VSL in particular, may indeed be the key that unlocks the future of symphonic music, and in this twenty-first century all composers are in that liminal space, musically speaking, standing between what is past and what will come. It will be interesting to see in the coming years what great composers and visionaries can do with such a vital tool as the Vienna Symphonic Library.
James