I'm happy that someone found the exact verbiage...the actual words that created the expectation of a "lifetime" upgrade path. This combined with the recent marketing of discontinued Pro Edition and Horizon products with the promise of an upgrade path (with NO mention of an expiration date), means I'll be paying VERY close attention to how VSL responds to customer reaction to this sudden and ill-advised change of policy.

Fred Story

Regarding all requests for a longer upgrade period:

on July 15th the new upgrade price calculating system will be activated, so we can't check automatically the old upgrade prices after July 15th.

I always find these threads somewhat amusing.  Don't get me wrong, I understand the perspective of those wanting to get the most out of their "investment".

But, this situation is really no different than when they came out with the Special Edition.  Users who bought the full VI set at the time felt cheated because there was now a very decent alternative at 1/10 the price than what they paid.  So the users bitched and moaned about it.  

It's no different than when with the original pro edition, there was a claim it was to be  24-bit but when it shipped it was only 16-bit.  Only later  the same samples at 24-bit packaged in a new form.  Yes there were discounts, but anyone who followed this path still ponied up a lot.  So people bitched and moaned about it. 

Or the time when there was a christmas sale and everyone hurried up and bought what they thought was a good deal only to find out that a new product was just around the corner so they had to buy those samples yet again.  And they bitched and moaned about it.

All the bitching and moaning has paid off much of the time.  I suspect they know it's coming and so will always have a few bones to throw to keep people happy.  And I suspect there will be a few bones here.  Or maybe a six month plan was the plan all along and the three month announcement was to get everyone used to the idea with the six month plan being the bone.  They have to at least create the appearance that they are listening to their customers.  We'll see. 

Anyway, let's all just realize that these guys have a continually growing set of samples that they want to sell.  It's an asset, but a wasting one, unless they find new ways to sell the same thing over and over again.  They realize their best next customer is an existing customer.  So the plan is to come up with ways to make their customers buy the same product in a different form over and over and over again.  They come out with new bit sizes (based on the same original samples).  They come out with different bundles of instruments (never the same) but constituting many of the same samples that exist in other bundles.  

The product is good -- it's very good, but it's expensive.  Unless you're willing to pony up a couple thousand (pick your favorite currency) each and every year, then you should just sit by and watch, or find a more reasonable alternative (there are many).  Or you can bitch and moan with the hope that the bone you get for doing so will placate you for yet another round until next time.

My two cents. I have no illusions that those of us who buy these products won't pay for them many times over. 

Edit:  Seems like the 6-month bone got thrown while I was creating this post.  How convenient! 

You know, I'm happy to have another 3 months, so I don't want to look a gift horse in the mouth. (I just hope we don't go over budget on our studio relocation, preventing me from doing the upgrade anyway.) And I wouldn't even bother to write a post-mortem to the announcement except for my love of VSL's products, and what I perceive as their genuine commitment to serve composers and musicians like myself.

But here's some tough love, guys...you need some PR help in these matters! First, it's hard to imagine that you didn't anticipate backlash from such an announcement and take steps to soften the blow. And second, even when you give a little by extending the deadline, the tone seems abrupt. There certainly appears to be little effort to explain the inconsistencies between your past marketing materials and this sudden change in policy. To me, there's not a lot of ambiguity in the word "Lifetime". ("Bitching and moaning" accusations notwithstanding.)

Love is a two way street, you know.

Fred Story

I agree with pretty much everything said in dbudde's post (basically except the release of SE annoying the Cube owners - it is not the same situation as no pledge was made to them that there would not be a budget package of the library released (I bought one myself), to compare with the "never pay twice for the same sample etc." VIP policy [VIP = Very Immaterial Patron]; after all the Horizon series already were offered along with the Cube if not before it).

Probably true (but again benefit of the doubt should always be extended in my view) also that the six-months period was going to be offered anyway but since the same uproar would have ensued it is hereby "bone-thrown" as an improved deal to the outrageous three-month one. The reason I am adding this post I am afraid is to reiterate a grave concern of mine (for the last time in this discussion) since it chimes with the general business-practice put forward here by DBUDDE and because I believe it is important - forgive the insistence please. That is:

If we all pay ±€5400 to upgrade now to a two year old technology, will you ask of us another ±€5400 by Christmas for the next upgrade to another CUBE, and will it be an ultimatum VIP policy again, namely that we will lose our recently acquired upgrade if we haven't taken the opportunity until, say March, and then it will cost ±€9200? All up ±€20000 for the same samples with different engines in four-five years? Hypothetically speaking...

Best wishes,

Errikos 

I don't think it's impossible for VSL to keep the legacy upgrade path in addition to implementing the new one, but the number of upgrade combinations increases to a point where it may be too complicated to do so.

One of the reasons I purchased the Pro Edition was VSL's generous upgrade policy.  I was upset when the Vienna Instruments were released so soon after I purchased the Pro Edition, but what helped ease the frustration was knowing that I could upgrade at any time.  If you take away the legacy upgrade path, I may never buy another VSL product or recommend them to other people.

If there is a deadline on an upgrade you can be certain there is a new product right around the corner.

Just my opinion. 

Although it does absolutely not affect me, I'm still very dissappointed to read, that those old discount-pathes are cancelled.

I mean: You gave a promise and now you are going to break it for a reason you still didn't mentioned (sorry, but "it's not possible" is really a way to lame ... you can't expect anyone here to buy that).

I really don't get it ...

Why are you going to destroy the sympathy I and probably most other VSL users have to your company ?

Come on ... stay on the light side of the force ...

Sorry vsl but :

for the near future

there is also Garitan with GOS 2 and P.Sidlaczek with samplemodeling.

Seeing the last adverts for the now discountinued sample libraries, advertising the VIP program, really aggravates me! As stated in one of the above postes; this was still happening towards the end of 2007!

Those unfortunate enough to jump at this possibility, buying the complete Pro Edition only to find out 8 months later that their upgrade possibilies will be gone within 3 (6) months if they aren't willing to "invest" an even larger amount of money right away. Thats ALOT of money put into your product partly based on the fact that you would be able to upgrade to future products with a discounted price.

The most outrageous about all this becomes apparent when you compare the VIP program with other software (alot more affordable I might add) which keeps unannounced upgrade paths open for several years, through several different version releases. But VSL actually went out and advertised the upgrade possibilies, it has been used as a specific reason to invest money in their respective products.

And now; the upgrade paths will be removed...there won't be any. The advertised statement is not kept, it's not modified, it just ceases to exist.

Well...atleast there is some progress. Six is better than three months. Thanks extended to the VSL company.

But is it good good enough? Considering some of the theories put forward by other posters; if there's to be another Cube or some new technology on the way, and this is a step to exclude some users from possible new upgrade paths it will be even worse, as this is a such a u-turn comparted to what has always been advertised. Although this would be pure speculation...I hope.

Tom-Erlend Malm

I am a Horizon user and have been seriously considering upgrading to the complete VI Cube. However, I'm very concerned as to whether this is a wise choice at this time as I witness the dirge of cries from previous VSL users who are about to loose their upgrade paths. I am interested in a long-term "license" investment where there will be continued support and upgrade paths without a "time gun" held to my head. I would like to make the choice of when to purchase and when to upgrade myself rather than being forced with an upgrade ultimatum that would result in a significant loss for me (or lost opportunity to carry on in the investment I have made thus far). With a policy of time-limited upgrade paths and sudden changes, how can the company gain the lasting support and trust of its user base? And without this continued support, how would the company be able to support my investment? And with a "sample-locked" dongle-based product, the well-being of the company is extremely important to me. Might it be wiser for me to invest in a smaller product such as the SE given the instability or possible changes this situation forebodes?

Please VSL, with such little time left now for me to make financial arrangements and reach a decision (prices are going up 10% in the US in 3 weeks), tell me how my investment will be secure in the future or I will have serious reservations about investing in the full VI Cube at this time. Offering users only 3-month extension (still with impending price increase in 3 weeks) doesn't seem like a serious solution as you are still cutting many off and it doesn't address the issue of trust, credibility, and my future investment. Plus, retailer might be concerned as well as I have no time to purchase from them, install, and reach the deadline before prices of extended libs go up - so I have no choice really but to purchase directly from you (even though retailers off me a cheaper solution). Certainly what you have created so far is a magnificent world-class product, and possibly with the exception of EvanEvans, I think everyone else might agree. However, with a policy of pulling the upgrade rug from such an important and large group of current users, how will VSL continue to grow and flourish? Are more and more expensive product sustainable? Are cheaper products around the corner that might undermine a current investment? Anyone with opinions or suggestions on making this upgrade investment please chime in as I'm suddenly seriously concerned as to what my best course of action is given this disturbing turn of events.

Deeply concerned,

Gregory D. Moore

Hi All

Just grabbing the end of this thread having not had chance to read everyone's comments... but... I just wanted to say something.. (I'm sorry

if someone else has said this!)

I'm lucky... I (like many on here) make a good living writing music and have felt that for the last few years VSL has been a great help in this.

I was an early user and am lucky enough to be able to upgrade all along and currently own everything that VSL make... all of which is used daily

and all of which is universally amazing in it's quality.

But.... For someone who spent the £2500 (or whatever it was at the time.. whatever, it was a LOT of money for me then!) to be told that if my circumstances hadn't changed, and that I HADN'T been able to upgrade yet that my right to do so at a reasonable rate was being determined by people spending £300 of £400 on a library that it was stated from day one would hold no upgrade path... I would be furious! Surely some respect for early users is due. When I bought into this noone had a clue who VSL were, how successful they would be come, and what their libraries were like to use. We all lept in with a lot of trust and faith.

Anyone that CAN afford to update to VI.. do it.. as soon as you can... they really ARE amazing. As I said, luckily this announcement hasn't affected me but I do feel that the reasons given don't tally up in my head.

Just my opinion

Cheers

Ty Unwin

 The number and intensity of comments on this thread are evidence of how problematic VSL's change of policy is. As I have said several times in earlier posts, this policy change does not affect me personally. I never purchased the First or Pro Edition - - I have licenses for the standard part of the Symphonic Cube, the Bösendorfer, and the complete (standard and extended) solo string library. So, however I might question the wisdom of this decision, I have no personal stake in the outcome.

My attitude towards the folks at VSL is that of a friend. I am deeply respectful of the quality, intellectual brilliance and commitment to excellence that VSL's products demonstrate.  If I am critical of VSL's recent policy decision, my criticism is that of a friend suggesting to his friend that an announced course of action may not be in my friend's long-term interest.

That said, one has to analyze why a company might make a decsion that even a novice could predict would be a public relations disaster. What this decision suggests is that VSL is under financial pressure. The problem may be that the market for the kind of excellence demonstrated by VSL products is relatively small. In this context selling and reselling the same samples to the same audience might become a matter of economic survival. I have no doubt, given the idealistic nature of the entire project in which VSL has engaged, that they meant what they said about the VIP upgrade path when they originally announced it. But, it would seem, circumstances have changed. If this speculation is correct, then the question is what is the best way to deal with the change in circumstances. Is it, for example, wise to risk alienating a significant part of the customer base and to risk, further, the loss of trust that this recent policy change engenders among committed professional customers? If a promise made so explicitly - - and so recently - - can be breached, what certainty can customers have that any new promises will be kept? 

At the same time, one has to recognize that economic survival has to be the first aim of any company - - no matter how idealistic its intentions. Look, for example, at music notation software. The worldwide demand for sophisticated music notation software is such that it has been able to support the ongoing development of only two applications, both produced, until recently, by small, financially shaky corporations. (Sibelius was recently acquired by Avid, a far larger, more financially secure company.) Anyone who works with Finale can perceive that, although it is probably the most flexible notational software, it is saddled with many layers of legacy code. I am sure that the folks at MakeMusic (Finale's parent company) would love to remedy this situation and do a complete rewrite so that the program would not exhibit anomalies such as huge consumption of CPU power for simple MIDI playback, but the problem is, most likely, that they cannot afford to hire the programming talent to accomplish this and that, to survive, they must come up with a new version of the program every single year. 

Perhaps it would be better for VSL to take its customers into confidence and state the facts of the situation rather than to provide lame cover stories. I suspect that many customers would feel more positively, if VSL simply stated that they could not afford to continue their original upgrade policy and that, to provide support for ongoing development, they have, very regretfully, been forced to break the promises they originally made. Being frank about the facts of the situation might go a long way to renew the culture of trust and collaboration that has, hitherto, existed between VSL and its customers. After all, we are musicians, so most of us know something about the conflict between ideals and economic reality. 

It saddens me to read this thread. I do not own any VSL products but am seriously considering either the SE package or Appasionatta strings. I have always thought of VSL as the "Rolls Royce" of orchestral samples and finally have thecash to start out. It is so sad to see so many loyal customers frustrated by what feels like a very poor marketing decision.

Imagine if the brochure read "Pay for the same samples twice" or "The VIP program is subject to change at anytime" A lot of people may have thought twice. I still belive that VSL makes the best orchestral sample lib but there are alternatives. Kirk Hunter offers a heck of a deal for a lot less money. As does EW and a few others.  I think Herb and his team run a class act. Pricey, but arguably the best product of it's kind. It seems a shame to tarnish such a reputation with this announcement.

Sincerely,

Darren

Awesome.

2 Years after spending +$1000 on my Opus 1 and 2 the product is discontinued, replaced, and my upgrade is being taken away. I should mention I got in my last year of my music undergrad and as a new and young composer/producer I literally can't afford to upgrade. If I had known things would work out like this I would have NEVER bought Opus 1 and 2. 

After this annoucement even if I had the money to upgrade I'd be taking advantage of EastWest's 20th Anniversary "Buy one get one free" deal instead. VSL makes great products but there is no way I can support a company that treats it's users like this. VSL has lost me as a customer, I will not be buying from them again.

@benbartlett said:

The Cube is no longer on my shopping list, whereas the piece meal packages probably will be. Ultimately, as a professional, I would rather divert my budget towards sessions of REAL strings etc than spend the equivalent to have, lets face it, samples.

@shredordead said:

Awesome.

2 Years after spending +$1000 on my Opus 1 and 2 the product is discontinued, replaced, and my upgrade is being taken away. I should mention I got in my last year of my music undergrad and as a new and young composer/producer I literally can't afford to upgrade. If I had known things would work out like this I would have NEVER bought Opus 1 and 2. 

After this annoucement even if I had the money to upgrade I'd be taking advantage of EastWest's 20th Anniversary "Buy one get one free" deal instead. VSL makes great products but there is no way I can support a company that treats it's users like this. VSL has lost me as a customer, I will not be buying from them again.

I'm pretty much with you there. I was intending to buy everything, including all the newer special libraries.  Even after this announcement I thought of loading up a credit card to manage all the upgrades now. We'd decided that all the 'slack' in our budget, for the next few months, was being put aside for VSL, so I figured if I could get a 0% credit deal, then paying it off would just be the same commitment, except I end up with the libraries up-front.

The problem is I no longer trust them. Their products are frankly not that much better than the rest, but are massively more expensive. I've been paying that because of their business model, which it now turns out was a lie. I could go £2500 into debt to buy the VIs that I don't have, only to be told my product is obsolete on July15th, and that I need to pay another £6000 or so if I want continued support. With the whole world of computing currently up in the air, with 64bit not yet fully working, with Vista not yet being a clear option, etc, there is every opportunity for the VSL people to make sure that the VIs we purchase cease to function some time soon, and force us all to upgrade again.

I won't be taking the risk.