@clarkcontrol said:

Remember, you are setting dangerous precedent here.  Basically what you are saying to your customers is that there is only a VIP as long as it is convenient for you.  At any given moment, EVERY SINGLE VSL customer is at the very most 90 days away from losing their entire investment.

 EVERY SINGLE VSL customer is at the very most 90 days away from losing their entire investment.

 EVERY SINGLE VSL customer is at the very most 90 days away from losing their entire investment.

 EVERY SINGLE VSL customer is at the very most 90 days away from losing their entire investment.

At any given moment.

That is what you are saying. 

Clark 

You say we hardly lose anything? If a customer is planning an upgrade, you lose the entier worth of, say the Pro Edition. We lose what we as customers were promised. The discount when buying future product containing samples we already have. And I would say this is quite a value. In our case it's worth 4K euro.

It's a fair point that upgrades can't be expected to last forever. And yes the VI's are two years old. But first, there is no new product. There is no new samples, no new software. It's basiclly still the same product. Two years isn't a whole lot if you see how other companies deal with possible upgrade paths. In this case it's just pure severance. This is where the whole point of the VIP policy comes into view...It's an advertised arrangement. There hasn't been any indication that it would be removed. Then VSL decides to remove it within 3 months. And the point made above is exactly that; from now on you cannot consider the VIP policy to protect your possibility to upgrade, any longer than 3 months at a time. This is a COMPLETE turnaround in their philosophy.

Think about those who doesn't visit the forum at a regular basis. For every poster here there is bound to be alot more that either hasn't seen this announcement, or actually understood the severe consequences. Disbelif should be expected when a bond between customer and company is being cut like this.

Thank you

I personally upgraded already, so I'm not hit by this decision. But I'm also very surprised by this decision. And the excuse is rather lame: too many upgrade paths.... I'm sorry, this is a joke, isn't it?

@DG said:

For a start, there is no investment. You have a non-transferable licence, that's all. It has no value, except to you. This is not an investment.

DG

As someone who is fortunate to earn their livelyhood in the music industy I would certainly consider the money I have spent with VSL as an investment. Similarly, I'm sure studio owners would regard their premises as an investment in their business even if they only rented rather than bought.

I would hope that VSL might take another look at their upgrade programmes. I'm certain the old (never pay twice for the same sample) set up has earnt them a lot of goodwill and sales.

Julian

The following is a quote from the VSL newsletter of November 12, 2004:

"When registering your First Edition, you are automatically entitled to all privileges of the Vienna Symphonic Library VIP program and therefore eligible to upgrade to the PRO EDITION for the reduced VIP price at any later date." (emphasis mine)

I wish I could find some of VSL's advertising copy of that era which expounded the virtues of the VIP program and stated that your "investment" in the library would always be protected by the VIP program.(People who purchase licenses for sample libraries are indeed making "investments" in their work and businesses - - as well as making an investment in the company from which they purchased the license!!)

One might guess that, if the advertisements had, instead of promising an always available upgrade path through the VIP program, expounded the pseudo- legalistic argument propounded by DG (who states: "For a start, there is no investment. You have a non-transferable licence, that's all. It has no value, except to you. This is not an investment.") sales would not have been nearly as brisk as they were. 

However, if one really wants to get legalistic (not something I reccommend) about all this, the VIP program - once highly touted by VSL as a major selling point - - might be considered part of a contract between the customer and VSL - - so that VSL's decision to end the VIP program might be then construed to constitute a breach of that contract. 

I want to emphasize that this decsion does not affect me since I never owned the Pro Edition. I am happy with VSL's products and have the greatest respect for their work and their committment to excellence. For me this decision is problematic as a matter of principle and as a classic example of a poor business decision.  The problem is that this decision breaks a promise that was explicitly given to VSL's customers and, thereby, very palpably harms the trust between VSL and its customers. That this is its effect is evidenced by the comments on this thread. 

People simply don't like it when one party to a deal unilaterally changes the terms. 

i know this discussion will last a while .... but i'd ask you to also consider 2 things:

@stevesong said:

"When registering your First Edition, you are automatically entitled to all privileges of the Vienna Symphonic Library VIP program and therefore eligible to upgrade to the PRO EDITION for the reduced VIP price at any later date." (emphasis mine)

and to be honest: who likes to return to the older sampler formats after having played with the ViennaInstruments?

in a certain way loosing the discounts for the older sample libraries was an indirect consequence of many users' demand for discounts from the Special Edition to the big collections ... more or less the upgrade paths have only shiftet their levels ...

christian

@DG said:

"For a start, there is no investment. You have a non-transferable license, that's all. It has no value, except to you. This is not an investment."

 

DG is unfortunately correct; it is not a matter of semantics.  Strictly speaking the VSL library is an investment insofar as one can recuperate and hopefully end up making money through the use of that library. The difference with every other bit of equipment in a studio however, is that everything else carries a considerable resale value on top of that. VSL is only a license. And this is exactly why this situation is now bordering on unethical, as what is a license if not a gentlemen's agreement over time; and what is that agreement worth if one of the parties welshes on it? Which brings us to the second point,

"VI is over 2 years old. In technology terms this is hardly new. You can't expect upgrades to last for ever."

  [/quote]

 This is one of my fears that I mentioned before that nobody seems to share. Indeed, the VI are more than two years old. Is there something looming over the horizon which is going to replace it (I mean as a better similar comprehensive package not individual or SE packages) to which owners of the Cube will have to pay 4-digit € to upgrade? What is then happening with Pro Edition owners? Do they end up having paid twice (if they let this "forced" deadline pass) for a product that a newcomer will pay for once?... Or more than twice (if they upgrade now) in a matter of months?... What feeds that fear the most is that surprisingly lamest of excuses given by the company, that they cannot cope with several upgrades at once. Quite silencing.....

"Now, you may have a point in saying that VSL is not honouring the VIP program that they started, however that is also not strictly speaking true. They are honouring it, but are just giving you a time limit in which to take it up."

[/quote]

I believe these sentences to be vague and somewhat self-contradictory, and as I have indicated in my previous post, this particular time limit with which one party redefines this license - this gentlemen's agreement (including the VIP program) - in my opinion is extortion-like.

In any case, it is certainly not DG's responsibility to answer our serious complains; I have never heard a note this man has composed but having read his innumerable posts as he benevolently helps everyone with their problems, he seems to know what he is talking about, he is a power user of the VSL so I am certain he has a lot on his plate. I am actually surprised we haven't yet heard from the company again on this. I suppose they are re-considering their offer, or maybe just waiting for this post to fall from the top ranks into the obscurity of past posts and pages. I am hoping for the former.

Sincerely,

Errikos. 

As mine was a long letter, I did not see Christian's before I posted mine. Welcome to this discussion, but the point is not whether it is going to last a long time (how much hot air will be generated) but whether the company is taking this post and customer complains seriously!

Obviously Stevesong will upgrade to the Cube at some stage and not Pro Edition which was by the way promoted again in discount as a product late last year... The fact that other customers "demand"(??) for discounts from the SE to the big collections (I also bought SE) has nothing to do with us who (also) buy from the top shelf to begin with, and I still cannot see (and apparently others) why their upgrades should become incumbent on our VIP program, or what the difficulty is to keep those few (as the company says) Pro Edition customers eligible for their Cube (or later other comprehensive) upgrade...

Errikos. 

All I can say is that it should be obvious that a lot of people are upset by VSL's decision to discontinue the VIP program - - and that they view it as a breach of trust.

A business decision that arouses so intense a degree of upset among those who have already made significant investments in your products (or, strictly speaking, in licenses to use your products) needs, I think, to be reconsidered. Why sow distrust among those who already trust you? 

errikos, it is by no means about *hot air* but more about the pros and cons of shifting upgrade paths to a new level

christian

Consider this also:

Let's assume you are intent on abolishing this upgrade path; from a purely financial perspective it would make far more sense to allow a longer period before the VIP offer ends. As some have already stated, 3 months is not long enough to get the money together for the upgrade. Therefore you are automatically cutting off revenue since I'm willing to bet no-one will upgrade from the First/Pro Editions if they haven't already done so by July 15th. As I said before, no-one would want to pay for the same samples twice. Furthermore, the people with tight budgets (or at least tighter than those who have already upgraded) are likely to be the very ones who have yet to upgrade their collections. So, you see, apart from the moral implications of your decision, it's a financially bad move also.

@Mobius said:

As some have already stated, 3 months is not long enough to get the money together for the upgrade.

@cm said:

in a certain way loosing the discounts for the older sample libraries was an indirect consequence of many users' demand for discounts from the Special Edition to the big collections ... more or less the upgrade paths have only shiftet their levels ...

christian

I just read this news for the first time, and my heart sank. When you not only compose for a living, but run a studio - with employees, health insurance and all sorts of other overhead - you have to prioritize expenditures. I've dipped my toe in the VI water with Appassionata strings, and applaud VSL for their groundbreaking work. I've looked forward to upgrading my Pro Edition Symphonic Cube to the VI collection for some time. But other spending priorities have always interceded. (It's not just the cost of the library. I've felt that I couldn't get best use of the upgrade until new Mac Pros are part of the equation.)

Now, (through no fault of VSL) we're in a position in which we must move and build a new studio by fall. As part of that transition, I'd hoped to finally be able to begin enjoying the full Vienna Instruments experience. But we can't do it by July 15th - our financing won't be in place by then. And if I have to pay full price...as if I'd never spent a dime on a VSL product...when I was promised an upgrade path, only to have a 90 day cutoff arbitrarily imposed - I don't know that I'll ever make the upgrade at all. The extra cost of VSL will equal TWO new Mac Pros! (I not only own Appassionata and Pro Edition Cube, but almost every Horizon Series product released.)

I can understand the need to make a bottom line business decision - I own a business myself. But I feel like Herb is really throwing us a short rope here. Very, very, very disappointing. It's, "Come up with over five grand in under 3 months, or miss the boat". Completely out of the blue...and unforgivingly disappointing.

Fred Story

Whatever the short-term "bottom-line" situation may be for VSL, alienating a significant number of users with what seems, to many, like a breach of promise  - - including some who are personally unaffected by it - - with this decision may not, I believe, make long-term business sense. Good will between a company and its customers is, after all, a highly significant business asset, one especially important to a small company most of whose products are never likely to be huge mass market items. 

It seems possible that this decision was rooted in the view that most First and Pro Edition customers who were likely to upgrade  to the Vienna Instruments had already done so, while the newer market created by the Special Edition needed an incentive to purchase parts or all of the rest of the Vienna Instruments libraries. Perhaps it seemed financially necessary to VSL to issue an ultimatum to those - - mainly professional musicians - - who had purchased but have not yet upgraded from the First and Pro Editions - - if they were going to be able to afford to offer an upgrade path to users of the First Edition (a market that is likely much larger than that for the First and Pro Editions - - and is, most probably, composed of a mix of musical professionals, students and amateurs.) The question then is: Is this new, larger, potential audience for VSL products really going to be so reliable a part of the customer base that the  possible alienation and loss of other (mainly professional) customers - - who made a significant investment in VSL products earlier on - - is compensated for? Should the folks at VSl not elect to reconsider this recent decision, time will tell of its wisdom or lack thereof. 

@DG said:

For a start, there is no investment. You have a non-transferable licence, that's all. It has no value, except to you. This is not an investment.

Secondly, even if there is no upgrade, your samples still work, they sound exactly the same, and you yourself admit that they stand up to any other library, so you have lost nothing.

Thirdly, VI is over 2 years old. In technology terms this is hardly new. You can't expect upgrades to last for ever.

Now, you may have a point in saying that VSL is not honouring the VIP program that they started, however that is also not strictly speaking true. They are honouring it, but are just giving you a time limit in which to take it up.

DG

I strongly disagree with most of this. The VSL was considered an investment, because their promotional materials said that no customer would ever pay twice to use the same samples. We all felt safe in the knowledge that we maintained our position on their 'ladder' even when our purchasing was at a slower rate. Now it turns out that, despite once being at the top of the ladder, I am now right back at the beginning, simply for having taken too long.

Yes the samples still work, but that's hardly the point. I've been struggling for years to buy into VSL. I had to go into debt to get the original libraries when they were on offer for students. Then I slowly started building a system around them, whilst also paying back the debt. With the advent of the VIs I had to decide to ditch Gigastudio, because FXteleport amd Gigateleport don't work on one network. So I rebuilt my system, in the belief that I would one day be able to buy all the VIs - I had no worries because of the Vienna promise that the upgrade path was always going to be there. Now I either have to go back to Giga, ditching the few VIs I've managed to buy, or be stuck without using most of the Vienna stuff that I've owned once. Eventually the performance tools will become incompatible with a version of Windows, so my Pro Library will, in fact, shortly become obsolete.

I agree that you can't expect upgrades to last for ever, but strictly speaking this is not an upgrade. The samples in the VIs are exactly the same as those in the old libraries, so, in fact, upgrading to the VIs is already asking us to pay a second time for the samples. I understand that the player clearly required development time and overheads, and that there needs to be a charge for this, but it is the same player for every library. So, in charging so much for the Standard Instruments the Vienna people are either charging us a total of about 3000 Euros for one sample player (which would make even Gigastudio seem very, very cheap) or they're charging again for the samples. Obviously original customers then get a heavy discount on the extended instruments, but that was just a sneaky way of making us buy more samples if we wanted to see our investment recouped.

No they are not honouring their upgrade program. It never was a program, it was given as a policy - a statement of permanent commitment. The Vienna people very proudly shouted that nobody would ever have to pay twice to use the same samples. Now they're simply going back on that - it's called lying.

Even if withdrawing the policy was reasonable, and it's not, the timescale is completely unreasonable. If we haven't already bought all the VIs it's probably because we're finding it tough to get the money together. How likely is it that two months is enough time to do something we couldn't do in three years?

Finally the notion that it's impossible to offer the upgrades from SE at the same time as from the old libraries is, quite frankly, utter crap. It's a simple case of working out which samples users already have in any particular combination of products, and charging for the others. Yes it's probably complicated, but telling customers that they can just go ahead and pay thousands of euros again to use the same samples, because the alternative is complicated, is the kind of downright arrogance I expect from politicians.

I would like to add my dismay, and disgust to that already expressed here. I'm going off to look into EW products.