Well, the news is great: according to the latest VSL newsletter, the price is going up another 10% for those buying with US dollars and the upgrade policy has been changed.

What makes people most unhappy is that the original advertising accompanying the First Edition and Pro Edition suggested to users that their libraries would never become obsolete - - that, if they invested in these libraries, they would always be able to upgrade at some discount to the price charged to new users. In such a situation, when "never" and "always" turn out to have a finite duration, there is bound to be severe disappointment - - a disappointment that harms the unique collaborative relationship between VSL and its customers. In my view - - as someone who does NOT own the First Edition or Pro Edition - - this is the worst, most short-sighted, marketing decision VSL has ever made because it disturbs the bond of trust between the company and its customers. Ah well......

I hope that VSL will reconsider this decision. All the money I've spend on sample libraries since I first purchased Glass & Stones has gone to VSL. I purchased libraries as soon as I was able to afford them, and I was planning on upgrading to the full cube as time allows. I simply don't have the income to upgrade in the next 3 months, or 12 months for that matter.

I understand from user requests that people who have bought the SE want to upgrade to the Cube. They have spent between £250 and £1100 (depending on whether they bought standard/extended and SE+), and although I understand that they would like to get the amount discounted from purchases, I don't see how the new upgrade path would need to over-write the one that already exists.

In some ways it seems that by taking it's current path VSL would rather give discounts to people who have spent £250 than to people who have spent thousands (in my case my best guess is in excess of £4500). Why can't we both have discounts? Since there's so few of us left would it be possible to do the discounts by email (backoffice?) rather than through the web shop?

I bought the Pro Edition (as I had the Opus 1 before it) safe in the knowledge that the money I spent would also be an investment that could be discounted against future products. I'm now being told that the upgrade path that was supposed to protect my investment is going to expire, despite being sold the product with that understanding and wanting to make use of it. On the other hand, people who were never told that they had an upgrade path when they purchased from the company will now get one.

As I've said, I'm a very loyal VSL customer and I say this with the greatest possible respect for the company and it's achievements - please reconsider this course of action and find a way for us to retain our discounts.

Thank you,

Martin
 

Dear VSL team.

As some of the above posts states; please reconsider this decision. Atleast allow a compromise. Theres is no doubt that the offer you are making with free extended libraries is a good one, but, the timeframe is just too short. I know you have reserved the right to change to VIP arrangement. But is this really the way you want to do it? Do you really consider this a fair, or let aloine a reasonable arrangement? A three month "warning" and basicly and "ultimatum" to buy or lose the discount.

I do not know what your thoughts about the VIP arrangement has been, but for customers it has been considered something which "protects" their investments, and certainly not thinking that this arrangement would suddenly dissapear. And to have that policy pulled within a three months period is just not right. I can't imagine that keeping the VIP discount path for the old sample libraries, or atleast keeping a longer grace period, will in anyway drive your company out of business. 

But stop for a moment and think about what it means for the customers who has already put their hard earned money into your product. If you cannot afford an upgrade now, your chance is forever gone, and we'll have to invested over twice the amount of money. This ofcourse includes buying samples we already have once again. This rules out an upgrade for many of us. As one of the above posters proclaimed; this is actually the most expensive piece of musical "equipment" any of us got access to...and we only own a license.

If my memory serves me right, a similar "grace period" was proposed by Native Instruments, although the product was different. Severel times those arrengements, or deadlines to upgrade, where pushed back to allow more customers to be included. These three months can not in any way be considerd a long or reasonble amount of time considering probably none of your customers even thought you were to remove the VIP arrangement at all!

So Herb and the rest of the VSL team...please...extend the grace period. Atleast the ability to upgrade, not necesserily the free extended libraries. Give your loyal customers a fair chance to use their promised VIP upgrade path.

This is quite litterary me begging...And thats not something I tend to do. But pride doesn't matter here. However 4k and the possibility to get the Symphonic Cube does!

Kind regards

Tom-Erlend Malm

 Oh, boy, this makes me feel sick inside...

I find it hard to believe that it is really that difficult to keep up with all of the upgrade paths.  After all, isn't that what the discount calculator is for?

Consider this:  My first Edition and Horizon libraries STILL hold their own against ANY other library out there.  If they can hold their value in a practical sense, shouldn't VSL honor that kind of staying power?

I overextended myself when purchasing over $5000 US for these libraries years ago.  I thought with the VIP I would never have to worry because I could wait to reenter the sequencing field while work took me elsewhere.

I still use a 2x1.25 G4 with 1.5 gig of RAM.  It still works great.  The samples work great.  I have a never say die attitude about my music, it has allowed me to persevere where the less tenacious have given up.

Do not abandon us, please please please.

As stated above, the idea of extending the deadline is an excellent one.  Please consider six months or even December 31st.

Also, if the database management issue is real (and I don't mean to insult you by not believing that it's too difficult to update the discount calculator) maybe only allow upgrades from the full 1st Ed./Pro to the full cube while eliminating the horizon and piecemeal upgrades.

Remember, you are setting dangerous precedent here.  Basically what you are saying to your customers is that there is only a VIP as long as it is convenient for you.  At any given moment, EVERY SINGLE VSL customer is at the very most 90 days away from losing their entire investment.

 EVERY SINGLE VSL customer is at the very most 90 days away from losing their entire investment.

 EVERY SINGLE VSL customer is at the very most 90 days away from losing their entire investment.

 EVERY SINGLE VSL customer is at the very most 90 days away from losing their entire investment.

At any given moment.

That is what you are saying. 

Clark 

@clarkcontrol said:

Remember, you are setting dangerous precedent here.  Basically what you are saying to your customers is that there is only a VIP as long as it is convenient for you.  At any given moment, EVERY SINGLE VSL customer is at the very most 90 days away from losing their entire investment.

 EVERY SINGLE VSL customer is at the very most 90 days away from losing their entire investment.

 EVERY SINGLE VSL customer is at the very most 90 days away from losing their entire investment.

 EVERY SINGLE VSL customer is at the very most 90 days away from losing their entire investment.

At any given moment.

That is what you are saying. 

Clark 

You say we hardly lose anything? If a customer is planning an upgrade, you lose the entier worth of, say the Pro Edition. We lose what we as customers were promised. The discount when buying future product containing samples we already have. And I would say this is quite a value. In our case it's worth 4K euro.

It's a fair point that upgrades can't be expected to last forever. And yes the VI's are two years old. But first, there is no new product. There is no new samples, no new software. It's basiclly still the same product. Two years isn't a whole lot if you see how other companies deal with possible upgrade paths. In this case it's just pure severance. This is where the whole point of the VIP policy comes into view...It's an advertised arrangement. There hasn't been any indication that it would be removed. Then VSL decides to remove it within 3 months. And the point made above is exactly that; from now on you cannot consider the VIP policy to protect your possibility to upgrade, any longer than 3 months at a time. This is a COMPLETE turnaround in their philosophy.

Think about those who doesn't visit the forum at a regular basis. For every poster here there is bound to be alot more that either hasn't seen this announcement, or actually understood the severe consequences. Disbelif should be expected when a bond between customer and company is being cut like this.

Thank you

I personally upgraded already, so I'm not hit by this decision. But I'm also very surprised by this decision. And the excuse is rather lame: too many upgrade paths.... I'm sorry, this is a joke, isn't it?

@DG said:

For a start, there is no investment. You have a non-transferable licence, that's all. It has no value, except to you. This is not an investment.

DG

As someone who is fortunate to earn their livelyhood in the music industy I would certainly consider the money I have spent with VSL as an investment. Similarly, I'm sure studio owners would regard their premises as an investment in their business even if they only rented rather than bought.

I would hope that VSL might take another look at their upgrade programmes. I'm certain the old (never pay twice for the same sample) set up has earnt them a lot of goodwill and sales.

Julian

The following is a quote from the VSL newsletter of November 12, 2004:

"When registering your First Edition, you are automatically entitled to all privileges of the Vienna Symphonic Library VIP program and therefore eligible to upgrade to the PRO EDITION for the reduced VIP price at any later date." (emphasis mine)

I wish I could find some of VSL's advertising copy of that era which expounded the virtues of the VIP program and stated that your "investment" in the library would always be protected by the VIP program.(People who purchase licenses for sample libraries are indeed making "investments" in their work and businesses - - as well as making an investment in the company from which they purchased the license!!)

One might guess that, if the advertisements had, instead of promising an always available upgrade path through the VIP program, expounded the pseudo- legalistic argument propounded by DG (who states: "For a start, there is no investment. You have a non-transferable licence, that's all. It has no value, except to you. This is not an investment.") sales would not have been nearly as brisk as they were. 

However, if one really wants to get legalistic (not something I reccommend) about all this, the VIP program - once highly touted by VSL as a major selling point - - might be considered part of a contract between the customer and VSL - - so that VSL's decision to end the VIP program might be then construed to constitute a breach of that contract. 

I want to emphasize that this decsion does not affect me since I never owned the Pro Edition. I am happy with VSL's products and have the greatest respect for their work and their committment to excellence. For me this decision is problematic as a matter of principle and as a classic example of a poor business decision.  The problem is that this decision breaks a promise that was explicitly given to VSL's customers and, thereby, very palpably harms the trust between VSL and its customers. That this is its effect is evidenced by the comments on this thread. 

People simply don't like it when one party to a deal unilaterally changes the terms. 

i know this discussion will last a while .... but i'd ask you to also consider 2 things:

@stevesong said:

"When registering your First Edition, you are automatically entitled to all privileges of the Vienna Symphonic Library VIP program and therefore eligible to upgrade to the PRO EDITION for the reduced VIP price at any later date." (emphasis mine)

and to be honest: who likes to return to the older sampler formats after having played with the ViennaInstruments?

in a certain way loosing the discounts for the older sample libraries was an indirect consequence of many users' demand for discounts from the Special Edition to the big collections ... more or less the upgrade paths have only shiftet their levels ...

christian

@DG said:

"For a start, there is no investment. You have a non-transferable license, that's all. It has no value, except to you. This is not an investment."

 

DG is unfortunately correct; it is not a matter of semantics.  Strictly speaking the VSL library is an investment insofar as one can recuperate and hopefully end up making money through the use of that library. The difference with every other bit of equipment in a studio however, is that everything else carries a considerable resale value on top of that. VSL is only a license. And this is exactly why this situation is now bordering on unethical, as what is a license if not a gentlemen's agreement over time; and what is that agreement worth if one of the parties welshes on it? Which brings us to the second point,

"VI is over 2 years old. In technology terms this is hardly new. You can't expect upgrades to last for ever."

  [/quote]

 This is one of my fears that I mentioned before that nobody seems to share. Indeed, the VI are more than two years old. Is there something looming over the horizon which is going to replace it (I mean as a better similar comprehensive package not individual or SE packages) to which owners of the Cube will have to pay 4-digit € to upgrade? What is then happening with Pro Edition owners? Do they end up having paid twice (if they let this "forced" deadline pass) for a product that a newcomer will pay for once?... Or more than twice (if they upgrade now) in a matter of months?... What feeds that fear the most is that surprisingly lamest of excuses given by the company, that they cannot cope with several upgrades at once. Quite silencing.....

"Now, you may have a point in saying that VSL is not honouring the VIP program that they started, however that is also not strictly speaking true. They are honouring it, but are just giving you a time limit in which to take it up."

[/quote]

I believe these sentences to be vague and somewhat self-contradictory, and as I have indicated in my previous post, this particular time limit with which one party redefines this license - this gentlemen's agreement (including the VIP program) - in my opinion is extortion-like.

In any case, it is certainly not DG's responsibility to answer our serious complains; I have never heard a note this man has composed but having read his innumerable posts as he benevolently helps everyone with their problems, he seems to know what he is talking about, he is a power user of the VSL so I am certain he has a lot on his plate. I am actually surprised we haven't yet heard from the company again on this. I suppose they are re-considering their offer, or maybe just waiting for this post to fall from the top ranks into the obscurity of past posts and pages. I am hoping for the former.

Sincerely,

Errikos. 

As mine was a long letter, I did not see Christian's before I posted mine. Welcome to this discussion, but the point is not whether it is going to last a long time (how much hot air will be generated) but whether the company is taking this post and customer complains seriously!

Obviously Stevesong will upgrade to the Cube at some stage and not Pro Edition which was by the way promoted again in discount as a product late last year... The fact that other customers "demand"(??) for discounts from the SE to the big collections (I also bought SE) has nothing to do with us who (also) buy from the top shelf to begin with, and I still cannot see (and apparently others) why their upgrades should become incumbent on our VIP program, or what the difficulty is to keep those few (as the company says) Pro Edition customers eligible for their Cube (or later other comprehensive) upgrade...

Errikos. 

All I can say is that it should be obvious that a lot of people are upset by VSL's decision to discontinue the VIP program - - and that they view it as a breach of trust.

A business decision that arouses so intense a degree of upset among those who have already made significant investments in your products (or, strictly speaking, in licenses to use your products) needs, I think, to be reconsidered. Why sow distrust among those who already trust you? 

errikos, it is by no means about *hot air* but more about the pros and cons of shifting upgrade paths to a new level

christian

Consider this also:

Let's assume you are intent on abolishing this upgrade path; from a purely financial perspective it would make far more sense to allow a longer period before the VIP offer ends. As some have already stated, 3 months is not long enough to get the money together for the upgrade. Therefore you are automatically cutting off revenue since I'm willing to bet no-one will upgrade from the First/Pro Editions if they haven't already done so by July 15th. As I said before, no-one would want to pay for the same samples twice. Furthermore, the people with tight budgets (or at least tighter than those who have already upgraded) are likely to be the very ones who have yet to upgrade their collections. So, you see, apart from the moral implications of your decision, it's a financially bad move also.

@Mobius said:

As some have already stated, 3 months is not long enough to get the money together for the upgrade.

@cm said:

in a certain way loosing the discounts for the older sample libraries was an indirect consequence of many users' demand for discounts from the Special Edition to the big collections ... more or less the upgrade paths have only shiftet their levels ...

christian