Certainly some interesting things there for me to try. I just haven't yet been able to play around with VSL enough to try out all these things. Will have to try what you said about layering a solo patch in an ensemble and moving it around slightly in the mix. Thanks for the tips.

Also on the mixing levels, do you (or anyone) wait until you have everything programmed in the mix? I heard someone say that they try to keep the levels around -20 db just to start out with enough headroom, and then mix later. I always have a hard time knowing if things are working out if I haven't mixed it, yet it seems that a starting point where everything is the same would be helpful for mixing. So I guess I am just asking at what point in the production process you start mixing.

Colin Thomson 

@clarkcontrol said:

The only other exception is if you want to emulate a particular recording.  To which I say, Listen, Listen, Listen.  Take the time to get the same reverb, e.q., DYNAMIC RANGE, and everything else.  Then make a template from that that says "John Williams Jaws Temp" or whatever.

 

Liberty and Freedom for all!

 

Clark

Here, mixing is an extra workflow.

After the composition and the editing is finished, all virtual instruments are bounced/rendered to seperate 24-bit wav/aif files, this with an uniform headroom containing the optimal S/N ratio. During composition and editing I have only one reverberator running, if any at all.

Then load the audio files in a new project and set up the mix.

I wish I could mix like Angelo; this is more in line with pros who have a separate mix engineer to take care of the technical stuff.  Plus, you save CPU resources by splitting the process in two.

I consider the mix and composition process one and the same.  Part of this is because I am always thinking of the end product at the beginning and part of this is because I can’t stop tweaking the arrangement until the final bounce—Ha!  Seriously, though, I am always trying to get the most realistic or appropriate sound possible so I am always working in context.

Ah, context.  This is why nothing is sacred when dealing with mockups.  Film scores can have a dynamic range as little as 20db.  Hans Zimmer strings sound and behave way different than John Williams strings.  If you’re using drum loops w/ orchestra a la John Powell that’s another thing also.

Felix—I always keep an eye on the main meters of my mixer when casually listening to music.  This way I can reference dynamic range in a technical sense without being obsessive, I am just making dynamic associations to what I am hearing.  I also have quite a few conductor scores (for inspiration) that I follow when listening to Holst, Strauss, etc. to further refine my perception of what I hear (or think I hear) versus what is actually there.  Lots of CD’s sound really “blendy” making it hard to pick out what is happening so having music in front of me really helps.

Otherwise, I try not to worry about these things in a technical sense because I’m going for a SOUND, not writing for real orchestra.  That’s why sometimes I will use the wrong dynamic patch and mix it down or up, or compress or exaggerate the dynamic range in order to get the music to “sound” right behind dialogue and FX, etc.

Colin—I always start low with levels (-20db for mp patches, -15db for f patches, higher levels for perc) then use the master fader at the end to bring peaks up to -3db.  Also I will tweak crescendos and general dynamics towards the end.  Don’t be afraid to use extreme e.q., either (or distortion, as I mentioned earlier).  As soon as I think that something is off limits mixing-wise, I know I’ve limited myself and the expressive potential of the virtual orchestra.

Clark

Okay Felix, this weekend I measured the data you requested on the mock-up of Sergei Sergeyevich Prokofiev's Sinfonie Nr. 1, D-Dur, Opus 25, "Symphonie Classique," composed 1916, which I made for exercising purpose.

I will post the result tonite, or not later then tomorrow.

Power Measurement

.

Felix and Rob

And now, please tell us what you do with this data, respectively how you apply it in a useful manner.

Angelo

Interesting numbers.

This is assuming your mock-up is completely indistinguishable from a real orchestra, dynamic-wise. (And then what orchestra would that be?)

I would like to hear the mock-up(s) to determine if the dynamics and balances between instruments are realistic to my ears. Do you have an mp3 that you could post?

Clark

I'm guessing that the first measurement would be more interesting/useful. The second measurement is peak readings derived from the entire movement?  If so, I don't know if that would mean much to me.

Clark

@clarkcontrol said:

The second measurement is peak readings derived from the entire movement?

Clark

Yes, the max. readout of the whole I. Allegro movement

@Another User said:

I would like to hear the mock-up(s) to determine if the dynamics and balances between instruments are realistic to my ears. Do you have an mp3 that you could post?

@Angelo Clematide said:

Felix and Rob

 

And now, please tell us what you do with this data, respectively how you apply it in a useful manner.

 

Angelo

 

 

Orchestration and Dynamics

There is an important difference between absolute and relative dynamics. Every instrument has some relative dynamic control in every register. However, some instruments in particular registers simply cannot achieve certain absolute dynamics: A group of brass playing in their high registers will never be very soft; a low flute can never be extremely loud. The best rule for a beginner is: Orchestrate your dynamics instead of just writing them as textual indications. Especially at dynamic extremes, ensure that the instruments and the registers chosen are conducive to the dynamic level required.

As a rough guide, here is a table of what the various families can achieve in absolute dynamics.

* the clarinet can play whisper soft, provided it is not written too high.

What is important in this chart is how to achieve dynamic extremes. Strings and certain percussion, (tam-tam, cymbals, and the lower drums) can start practically inaudibly. For sheer power, nothing has the force and impact of (high) brass plus percussion.

The notation of dynamics is often problematic for beginners. A good approach is to act as though there are only four dynamic levels: pp, mf, f, and ff. First, orchestrate the passage so that the absolute dynamic level desired easily results from the choice of instruments and registers. Second, think of dynamics as character indications. Choose which dynamic of the above four best suits the passage. Third, avoid the middle dynamics (mp, mf) as starting points: these are what players do when there are no dynamics notated at all. Finally, beginners should avoid writing different dynamics for different instruments: This requires a great deal of experience, since players normally do not see each others dynamic indications, and normally tend to aim for rough balance, unless the conductor specifies otherwise.

Reference:

http://www.musique.umontreal.ca/personnel/Belkin/bk.o/o3.html

    Do you write your music that is to be performed with absolute dynamics? I understand writing absolute dynamics for something that will be realized only on a computer, but it seems that if a flute player sees a marking of mf in the low regester, he/she will hold in reserve a good deal for louder dynamics. If I played the Rachmaninoff 3 piano concerto (nothing more than a dream, for now), and at the end where the piano is playing only in the upper regester it said mf (I am not sure what the actual score says. I am just using a 'what-if'), I would assume that this part should not be played to the full potential of the piano. Obviously, this part is the huge climax of a huge piece, and should be played with all the power that has been built up through the rest of the piece. But, in using absolute dynamics to notate this piece, Rachmaninoff would have had to put something like a mf there, as the piano just cannot play an orchestral ff in that regester as loud as the brass that comes in.

    So my qestion is, are absolute dynamics a good option for music to be performed by an orchestra?

     Colin Thomson