I was expressing a personal opinion and before asking me what my intentions were I was banned. It could have been cleared up quickly and without acting like elitist totalitarians. I disagree with that it had been done, and I do not think that your simple statement of the reason why I was banned completely describes the actual mood behind what went down. I see and understand how you perceive your actions were justified, but I will not let my fellow VSL members who trust me and respect me, allow you to state simply that it was due to me having bad manners. Especially when, before it occurred, it was mentioned that the board was democratic and no one had been banned before, and that you welcomed the opinions of all. That gave the impetus to speak freely. And then you imprisoned me for giving me that impetus.

I will have my fellow VSL members know that you do not allow free speech here.

Actions such as yours make it clear why I do not regret a % of the taxes I pay, to live where I live, or have the ideals I have.

If an apology is ever given, I will of course have a change in my views upon the VSL team, but as it stands now, VSL represents themselves with an elitist attitude, that, as I've stated in the past, is hindering their own growth. Whether or not I am respectable enough to say such things about a company, I assure the VSL Team my intentions are positive for the company, this is why I mention the criticisms. If I need to be a respectable person to voice such opinions, than I see a flaw in the supposed democratic views of the VSL team.

Evan Evans

P.S. It should be noted that the post that inflamed the ban, was intended to HELP the VSL team. But instead they decided that the customer is not always right, and banned me. if something sucks here, I will let you know. And if you do not care to hear it, it is YOUR loss, not mine.

Please stop reacting like a child, calm down, take a breath… try to be cool

[[[:D]]] [[[:D]]] [[[:D]]]

That is absolute bullshit! You charge Herb of simplifying things. Well you're simplifying things 10. fold or in fact down right lie when you say that VSL don’t allow free speech or act like elitist totalitarians. This is bar none the freest developer’s forum anywhere. I think the fact that you even state such idiocy puts things into perspective. It shows everyone that the world you inhabit is a different one than the rest of your 'fellow VSL members'. You use the term as if the forum members here should somehow feel bonded with you. Like they will stand up and agree with you like some martyr. Well I think you will face a different reality. You will find most people do not agree with you, and nor should they because its complete crap.

The fact that you were a) only temporarily banned and b) not banned months earlier speaks volumes. In fact I remember how several of your fellow VSL users were begging for you to be banned.

The funny thing is, that I actually agreed with your initial complaints about VSL's library. I too have complained about the soprano saxophone, and non sustained legatos but you don’t see me being banned do you? Truth is you were so way out of line its amazing you can still post here. And while I agree that in a sense you did tell the 'truth', you were banned for your absurd manners, and not your opinions. Face it

@Another User said:

acting like elitist totalitarians

interesting point of view,
the board is running now for almost four years, and there were all in all two temporary bans, I think this is a kind of world record [[;)]]

I'm curious which place on this world you think is non elitist totalitarian

@evan said:

I will have my fellow VSL members know that you do not allow free speech here.

c'mon - this is ridiculous ....
after the initial post i was thinking by myself *will we see another 40+ pages thread about nothing?* and was tempted to reply with this question and close the thread immediately. i should have done so ...

btw: showmanship is subject to entertainment tax here in austria, so authors of such posts will be liable to pay the costs ... [6]
christian

How come evans get to get banned twice and we don't.

Herb if you're listening ; I demand to be banned at once !!!!

@Christian Marcussen said:

That is absolute bullshit! You charge Herb of simplifying things. Well you're simplifying things 10. fold or in fact down right lie when you say that VSL don’t allow free speech or act like elitist totalitarians. This is bar none the freest developer’s forum anywhere. I think the fact that you even state such idiocy puts things into perspective. It shows everyone that the world you inhabit is a different one than the rest of your 'fellow VSL members'. You use the term as if the forum members here should somehow feel bonded with you. Like they will stand up and agree with you like some martyr. Well I think you will face a different reality. You will find most people do not agree with you, and nor should they because its complete crap.

The fact that you were a) only temporarily banned and b) not banned months earlier speaks volumes. In fact I remember how several of your fellow VSL users were begging for you to be banned.

The funny thing is, that I actually agreed with your initial complaints about VSL's library. I too have complained about the soprano saxophone, and non sustained legatos but you don’t see me being banned do you? Truth is you were so way out of line its amazing you can still post here. And while I agree that in a sense you did tell the 'truth', you were banned for your absurd manners, and not your opinions. Face it

Christian,

Those assumptions of yours are not how I feel, nor how I view things. And for the record, I was indeed partially incensed when Herb replied with his post, belittling that which I was banned for, and was proud to have been banned for. I won't go back and edit my post, but I will have you know, that I am sorry that I made it. And that you're reaction to it, is not in line with the reasons behind it's posting, and that as a result you're post is an excusable unnecessary reaction.

Yes it's probably true that I was banned for my manners, not for my opinions. But the manners were merely an escalation in response to a development team's staunch denial of their own flaws. It would be like telling someone they have a limp, and they go on with their nose up high denying it, and then trip on a stick 10 seconds later. I cannot feel I was out of line, for being the party who told VSL that some of their product needed some work, then them denying it and flat out feeling the other way around and telling me to not voice my opinions here, and then banning me for telling them they are out of line in a rude way. Martyr or not, I didn't choose the results that occurred. They escalated as a result of both VSL and myself. We are both to blame for my banning.

As far as I'm concerned it's water under the bridge. But Herb's post simply belittled what must have been insignificant to him, my time away from the board, when a real compassionate person could possibly have considered my feelings first before pushing the red button.

Evan Evans

Anyway, the situation is far too complex to simplify it, or have anyone here understand it any better than the VSL team and I can. So I move to just drop it, as it was brought up.

I like Herb a lot. And I'm sorry if I've ever hurt his feelings by anything I've ever said. Perhaps it's just collateral damage for owning a company? I hope VSL can take the opinions, and manners of others, objectively, and respond to them diplomatically. It may be something to strive for at this point, but it is a valiant goal, and one in which I believe a corporation is best in taking. Every customer is sacred. It's just good business.

My original post which escalated to banning dealt with some suggestions on how they run their business. It was more of myself being excited to be part of VSL as a customer than it was an insult. A constructive criticism. I have been a part of the Sibelius team as the same since it's inception. Many features in Sibelius are there as a result of my efforts. And the way they market the product etc. Any and all advice I can muster, I give. It is simply illumination. The company can see fit on their own how to use the knowledge.

Evan Evans

The situation is surprisingly simple, and not "complex" at all:

@evanevans said:

[...] Many features in Sibelius are there as a result of my efforts. [...]

To keep things in perspective: None of the features in products of the Vienna Symphonic Library are a result of your "efforts", Mr. Evans. You are _not_ part of the Vienna Symphonic Library. You were temporarily banned after posting threats against the Vienna Symphonic Library, badmouthing us and our products, and showing ill-mannered behaviour all over the place.

Oh - and thinking in terms like "collateral damage" is definetly _not_ well received over here. Diplomatically, of course.

I knew that he would write some long posts after this…
Evan, you have a big last name, read your post and how you behave, it's a shame… [*-)]
You always sound agressive, standing ready for fight, let's show us a bit of maturity, humanity and consciousness.

You said I insulted your family ?(!) What do you think you're doing while writing such things ?? You behaviour isn't appropriate.

The first two pages of this thread were hilarious!
It's a pity to see it slide down to a mudfight. Come one, mudfights are only fun with beauty-girls!! [[;)]]

[H]

@Laurent said:

You always sound agressive, standing ready for fight, let's show us a bit of maturity, humanity and consciousness.

You said I insulted your family ?(!) What do you think you're doing while writing such things ?? You behaviour isn't appropriate.

Not to mention that you dident insult his family one iota - he just used your comments as platform for further ego maintenance.

I'm usualy quite calm and patient, but I can feel the VSL teams frustration. They have such wide limits for what can be said here, and then you (evan) still drop come dropping out of nowhere claiming the opposite. That ticks me off. You also claim that to you it was water under the bridge until Herb posted. Well hey - you were the one who started talking about your banning saying it was for telling the truth. Thats just plain wrong, and of course Herb responds to this. So no - even if you try ophold your facade of coolness, your banning clearly was not water under the bridge.

Christian, I'm getting worried about your sanity cult. Whether to join or not, as one part of me does. The other parts? Well.................... [[:|]]

Anyway, I'd like to get back to the thread and talk some more about the demos.

I'm interested in more than one option. The 'raw' (no disrespect intended) demos we have (generally) are a good insight into the playability of the VI's. More so than almost 'overpolished' demos in other arenas. Although some users will have gifts in engineering and producing, other won't, and this realistic take on working with the VI's could benefit a wider audience.

Can we expect this new trend to continue with other instruments, as and when they become available?

Regards,

Alex.

It may interest you to know, that spring is sprunging in Moscow, and the slavic princesses are starting to strut the sidewalks, adorned in their new season finery. Does a man's heart good to see such elegant splendour 'on the hoof' as it were!
Off to jot down a melody or two about this most favourable turn of events.
[:)]

@hermitage59 said:

...It may interest you to know, that spring is sprunging in Moscow, and the slavic princesses are starting to strut the sidewalks, adorned in their new season finery. Does a man's heart good to see such elegant splendour 'on the hoof' as it were!...

[:)]

I'll be on the next plane [[[:P]]] [[[:P]]] [[[:P]]]

@Another User said:

It may interest you to know, that spring is sprunging in Moscow, and the slavic princesses are starting to strut the sidewalks, adorned in their new season finery. Does a man's heart good to see such elegant splendour 'on the hoof' as it were!

I'm afraid evans is banned. He's married.

But some of us......... AH ... Scunji

My petushka......

I am afraid that being married is of little consequence to a true slavic princess. Indeed, i suspect that some find the challenge more interesting!

Many women here, beautiful, elegant, and intelligent as they are, hunt men for sport.

Regards,

Alex.

@hermitage59 said:

...Many women here, beautiful, elegant, and intelligent as they are, hunt men for sport.

Regards,

Alex...

That reminds me of a perfectly awful joke which, needless to say, I'm going to relate...

Hunter goes looking for prey and sees a gorgeous young girl, totally naked...

"Are you game?" he asked.
"Yes" she replied.
So he shot her [[:|]]

Sorry about that [*-)]

Back to business...

@hermitage59 said:

Christian, I'm getting worried about your sanity cult. Whether to join or not, as one part of me does. The other parts? Well.................... [[:|]]

hehe - its completely safe to join [:D] I'm just amazed how people go all nuts and worship evan becuase of his father - even when hes completely obnoxious. Anyway this is starting to seem like some personal vendetta against Evan, which it really is not. I have no beef with Evan at all - I just have to react when I see unfair treatment, and misinformation being spread unopposed.

@hermitage59 said:

Christian, I'm getting worried about your sanity cult. Whether to join or not, as one part of me does. The other parts? Well.................... [[:|]]

hehe - its completely safe to join [:D] I'm just amazed how people go all nuts and worship evan becuase of his father - even when hes completely obnoxious. Anyway this is starting to seem like some personal vendetta against Evan, which it really is not. I have no beef with Evan at all - I just have to react when I see unfair treatment, and misinformation being spread unopposed.

Evan has never been anything other than civilised with me, so from my perspective, there is nothing to be gained from pursuing this. And frankly, if my late father were musically gifted in some way, i would find it both rewarding and frustrating to have a comparison made all the time. It would prompt me to be more determined to prove my own abilities, without carrying that weight of genetic history, and perhaps be more vocal about it. So I respect Evan's admiration for his father (having heard recordings of Bill in action), but i fail to find anything in that which Evan has posted, that in some way ''trades'' on his father's considerable talent.

Quite the contrary for me, as Evan writes in his own sense of himself and his determination to be recognised for his own abilities. (I wasn't party to the event of some conflict between Evan and VSL, so i'll offer no opinion related to that.)
And i'm confident, given our short shared history so far, that Evan and I, should we opine from contrary perspectives, could have a passionate and spirited discussion without descending to bone waving in the process. I don't see him as some film music god, anymore than he sees me as some omnipotent throwback to the 18th and 19th century concert fare.
(We both like port, which is one of life's great levellers.)

This is only my perspective, so please treat my comments as such.

Everyone is different, and importantly, perception of what is acceptable or not is different too, according to the 'listener' or the 'speaker.', or how 'thick' one's skin is. I have a great deal of respect for not only Evan, but Herb, Dietz, Christian with his amazing technicolour VI, [H] , Dave Connor, Paul Robbins, Daryl Griffiths, Bill Kersten, Jay Bacal, and many others, who I consider peers and/or friends, and talented people, and whose knowledge, craftsmanship, pursuit of excellence, and wisdom i admire.


So in the interests of promoting the value of joining the said Sanity Cult (an oxymoron to some) shall we move on, and discuss more fruitful and rewarding lines of opinion and conjecture?

Regards,

Alex.

[:)]

Evan has also been civilized with me, on varrious occations, including PM's IIRC.

But thats besides the point.

And yes - I'm all for fruitful discussion.