That's funny - I was wondering what JBM thought and he was writing it as I wrote. O.K., you are right on it not being entirely a fake.

For some reason, if this technology develops and is successful, I feel I may not want to do orchestral recordings with it. Not because of being crotchety (though of course I am) but because the technological process is infiltrating the very essence of the tone. In other words, one could make a case that I prefer the very lack of perfection inherent in sampling since it comes directly - even only in moments - from a living, breathing human being. What do the recording engineers do when recording these samples - they go to the greatest lengths possible to capture every nuance. All of this is distorted severely if run through a waveform deconstructing digital process. So this seems to be a fundamentally different approach that could be considered an artistic divide.

we can't be too precious about the technology we use ... sampling is as much on dodgy moral / artistric grounds as this new synthesis technique is.

... and whatever you feel about the artistic purity of of synthesised orchestral sounds, the phrase performances of this new tool-that-shall-not-be-named is awesomely good, even if the tone and timbre is not quite there yet.

Oops! Just got your reply, William.

I agree about the rhetoric thrown around in the advertising. It's a little bit much. And unfortunately, the instruments themselves don't sound *that* great. But it is fun to play around with (there's a 15-day demo), and does possess an impressive flexibility, which I sometimes find lacking in standard samples. I think it would really take some time to learn how to use it properly, though...

____________________

Aaack! Just got the next one!

I agree, in part. The thing is that it's only a matter of breaking down the sample into its component parts. All the elements of the sound (at least insomuch as we can perceive them as temporally distinct) are still there, they're just being used differently. I think what would make VSL's use of a similar technology different is that they would share your interest in preserving as much of the original performed quality as possible, only altering it when absolutely necessary (i.e., for making those gliss-to notes longer in the perf-leg_gl instruments). This is really only a matter of the implementation, and the philosophy behind its application. VSL would work to keep their samples intact, whereas this developer basically atomizes his. Again, Melodyne is the best model for comparison. There's a demo available -- give it a try with a few melodies exported from your VSL scores. It will probably blow your mind! The only problem, for me, with Melodyne has been the fact that it comes in a form/interface that I don't find useful for what I do.

I think VSL is doing something huge. My guess is a resynthesis by analysis-based composition program, with all instruments bundled in their analysed form, and all pulled together acoustically by the mysterious MIR... but that's some HEAVY CONJECTURE. It's not too far-fetched, though. It's *entirely* possible to do. And would the fact of it being almost sci-fi advanced ever stop Herb?

J.

Dear forum-members,

no need to beat around the bush - the name of the company is Synful, as everybody knows by now. It's founder, Mr. Eric Lindemann, seems to have joined our forum, too (as we all know by now, likewise [[;)]] ), so maybe he is willing to discuss these topics openly with us. - In the worst case we could agree that we don't agree. [:)]

There's no doubt that the technology employed at Synful is interesting, otherwise Yamaha wouldn't have made the effort to get their Vocaloid-principle patented (which seems to be very similar to the Synful-approach). - But it's beyond question that the Vienna Symphonic Library has chosen a different solution for virtual orchestration very consciously.

Greetings from Vienna,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

hmmmm... Deitz, no hints?

I mean, really — the quote I posted above certainly does imply something bigger than the creation of .GIG files going on behind the scenes. And it's been on the site for as long as I've been a member. There's got to be something tasty you can tell us! After all, MIR has been awfully quiet lately, and there's no indication that it's being designed as a VST or a standalone... and the idea itself seems inherently multi-channeled, so it makes sense that it would be a "built-in" feature... but what will it be "built-in" to?

Come on, just a little hint! [:D]

J.

>Yes, I think I'd prefer the second epitaph, thanks.

I thought so [:D]

>Also, I am somewhat set off by the tone of this company

You're right there, a little more taste in the marketroid blurb would have gone a long way.

>By the way sir, your post reveals a fundamental bias against sampling

Which tells me my example was too drastic, sorry. I'm into sampling for quite a while now, and if i wasn't, why would i frequent this forum anyway.

>on the VSL website.

So what ? I think VSL is strong enough a product and a company that it can deal with an open minded discussion. There's no hidden agenda and no plans to take over the world from me (at least as far as i would tell you).

VSL is not a religion for me. It's a (highly sophisticated) tool.

>Are you feeling a little bit conflicted these days?

Not at all. I'm curious, that's all.

Christian


[URL=http://www.artofthegroove.com/logic/mp3/Christian_Obermaier_demo.mp3]show reel [/URL] [URL=http://uk.geocities.com/christianobermaier/home.htm]home page [/URL] [URL=http://uk.geocities.com/christianobermaier/Studio.htm]studio pics [/URL] [URL=http://uk.geocities.com/christianobermaier/Gearlist.htm]gear list [/URL]

O.K., I admit I find this company's stuff interesting, even though it is synful.

Two other observations: the VSL legato is head and shoulders over those synthesized legatos. Hardly "disconnected notes." Right now I am working on an orchestral set up which is nearly all legato instruments. So almost no notes are "disconnected."

The other is a simple fact that is nevertheless an aesthetic principle - just hearing a straight, pure tone coming right from a great musician or group of musicians is what I am after. As soon as somebody tampers with it, even in a slight way, it is no longer what I am looking for. (Unless of course I am doing music which doesn't involve those acoustic instruments.)

In conclusion, we need to exorcise these synners.

"The power of VSL compels you!... The power of VSL compels you!

Like many here, I have listened to the guy's demos and read his material. It's worth pointing out that what he's doing is really something like a fancier version of the VSL perf. tool.

I don't really think one needs to take sides; if it sounds good, I'll use it!

His examples do have nice phrasing, but his sounds are clearly not as good as VSL's to start with. What he's doing does require some sample input and analysis, wherever he gets it from.

He is not alone, btw: There are other serious developers working along similar lines.

If past experience is any guide, I expect VSL to continue developping the Perf. tool AND adding to the sample library. And let's not forget that the the more comprehensive the library, the better the data available for analysis and resynthesis.

I think the next 2-3 years are going to see very interesting developments for those of us working in the field of orchestral simulation...

Alan

I too had an e-mail and was,er, COMPELLED to hear the demos.My take is this:the solo strings are really quite astonishing,the woodwind,slightly less so.The brass was surprisingly poor:the Copland demo,with tutti brass,sounded like a synthesiser (in the worst sense) to my ears.The are no ensemble strings (they'll have a hard time cracking that nut,I think) and no percussion at all!.There's a l-o-n-g way to go with this technology,but it's very promising.

The claim to have rendered sample libraries redundant (as of now) is wild hype,but I believe,in time,it will mature into a serious composition tool.The interface reminded me of the VSL's somewhat (flattery,etc...)

@Another User said:

things are certainly moving in the direction of some sort of hybrid

Gary Garritan has said that it's coming, but other than that, how is it obvious? I'm not asking rhetorically, I'm curious to know whether I've missed anything!

My uneducated guess is that most musicians will be using a hybrid of hybrids, at least for the next few years. Syn obviously does some things very well (violin), although the demos make me wonder whether some subtle nuances aren't missing - nuances that aren't missing from VSL (especially its winds, which to me are staggeringly good). I use a Yamaha VL1, which is a modelling synthesizer (no samples), for some things. VSL has carried "the new sampling" (meaning Giga and later) farther than anyone thought it could go. If I may be excused [;)], I also feel the multiple mic position idea has something to offer as well.

As a matter of fact, there are a couple - literally a couple [:)] - of DX-7 patches that I still use.

And so on.

I just found out about Eric a few days ago and would like to offer the idea that he, along with VSL, is just raising the bar which is exciting and respectable. Of course he will apply some degree of salesmanship (as have VSL) if he is to succeed. All this is perfectly ethical and rather obvious. What isn't obvious is Eric's background and credentials. Whatever we may think of a particular marketing approach, this man has done his homework and can only contribute to the art IMHO. Is he is listening in, I hope we can make him feel welcome even if some of us disagree.

Technically, isn't this what the VSL Performance tool does? It's a piece of software designed to "synthesize" legato performance created from stringing hard coded samples together. I've been doing this in some form or another for 15 years, I don't care how user friendly or real the sounds, samplers or synthesizers get, you WILL have to take time to get the mix to sound perfect in your mind..... Unless someone creates a Holo-deck like on the enterprise....Thats different.

-Ben

Nick,

Maybe "obvious" is a bit of an overstatement. But if you've been following the progress of acoustic instrument "synthesis" (including sampling), then you will have seen a vast number of technologies being investigated over the last few years. The majority of them are closing in on some form of synthesis by analysis, which is already a hybrid. Some do the resythesis through granulation, others through additive synthesis, formant synthesis, phase vocoding, and so on... But all of them are invariably finding ways of resynthesizing the original sample, so that it can be "unlocked" with regard to frequency/time. That's the nut. Samples are locked, and the only way to break that is through some form of resynthesis (at least as far as I know!).

J.

[ps - by "following the progress" I'm not thinking of commercially available programs, but rather of various competing theories. There are .pdfs all over the web following this area of research if you look around. Pretty fascinating stuff, even if the math leaves me in the dark much of the time... I concentrate my attention on the "abstract" and the "conclusion"! [;)]]

I don't know if Synful is in it's complete stage yet, but I listened to some of the samples and they sound Synthesized. The Brass sounds pretty "synthy" but interesting, the solo violin sounds quite nice. It may be worth it just to buy it for that!

-Ben

@Another User said:

The majority of them are closing in on some form of synthesis by analysis, which is already a hybrid.

Do you have any juicy links, jbm?

hmmm... I don't really...

I found a couple of .pdfs I downloaded, at some point -- try these:

http://rubato-music.com/Media/Serra_SMS_97.pdf

http://rubato-music.com/Media/cardle_CMPC.pdf

I don't know if I can really leave these up, since I don't have any rights over them. But they were freely available when I downloaded them, so it shouldn't be a problem. It's funny... you'll notice that the first one is from way back in 97, and actually outlines the general type of synthesis used in Synful.

Anyway, there's much more out there... just Google!

J.

ps - check out this little bit of madness, while you're at it:

http://www.rubato-music.com/Media/leven.mp3

no... there's no Synful-ness in there, just pure VSL!

...actually, glancing over the second one, it's not really about instrument synthesis, but I remember being very interested in it at the time, and thinking that it could very well do the job!

J.

Thanks jbm, I'll check them out.

And your piece sounds very real.

I'll add my 2cents worth here... [:)]

At the end of the day, these are all musical tools and have the capability to produce similar results for which ever tool you choose to use.

To keep up with the latest libraries etc, is the same as trying to keep up with the latest PC Hardware. As soon as you purchase the latest and greatest, something else pops up....

I think its all part of the technological evolution...

And I think 2005 will see some more awesome releases of libraries...

You can spend thousands and thousands of $$$$ just trying to keep up.

Have a safe new years eve and a fantastic new year!! [:D]

Regards, Max.

Have

What the people posting here do not understand is the distinction I'm making. If somebody can fake something more or less o.k. it is all the same to them.

20 years ago similar people tried to use analog synthesizers to fake an orchestra. It was a musical grotesquerie. Instead of using great analog synthesizers like the Moog for what they can do, which are their own timbre - these people ignored everything characteristic of that sound and crudely attempted to force an orchestra out of it.

Samples are not the same principle as this synthesized, deconstructed waveform. Samples are reality. A precise, perfected form of pure recording of orchestral tones.

If someone records a violinist playing, note by note, that is a musically useable sound. It is not artificial at all, it is simply fragmented. And then the composer puts together the fragments.

But this tampering with the waveform to produce sound that is like the original violin but now can be played in a different way - it is disgusting. Because the people "playing" this violin cannot play that instrument, know nothing of the difficulties involved, and simply tap like chimps at a keyboard, and smile as they hear the fakery.

I am disgusted by this vulgar distortion of sound and acoustics. It is the opposite of what the VSL stands for - a precise and complete representation of every sound that an orchestra makes with scrupulous and respectful attention paid to every characteristic of the instruments.