An orchestral composition -- comments requested

[DCB]

Here is a recent piece of mine. If anyone should care to listen I would be most grateful for any comments received. It is my first full-scale orchestration realized almost exclusively with VSL (1st ed. strings and brass only; percussion is not VSL). I produced it under a certain amount of time pressure, so it is not as polished as it might otherwise have been. (It was composed for a wedding.) I already have a few ideas for improvements to be implemented when I find the time. I would nevertheless be very interested in any comments on it in its current state.

http://www.buist.org/david/WeddingOuverture.mp3

(mp3 file 5 MB, playing time: 3:30)

EDIT: Here is a new version of the same piece (mixed for studio listening):

http://www.buist.org/david/WeddingOvertureGS3.mp3

EDIT: Latest version (Nov 17, 2004):

http://www.buist.org/david/WeddingOverturefullGS3mod3.mp3

Comments welcome!

[evan evans]

The mix is incredibly askew. It's quite hard to listen to like this. You need some more reverb. The percussion ought to be further back than the brass (as far as I know, there are no Piatti soloists in the front of the orchestra. except in a few of my works [;)] ). The horns have the highly despised "midi pumping" effect occurring.

The work itself seems quite good, and the orchestrations are above average. I do think for what you are intending that you could add some more voices to the brass chords, to make them shimmer. Try equidistant (3rds, 4ths, 5ths, within reason) intervals of 4 to 6 stacked notes at a time.

let some of the notes soar more. I think you are backing them off in order to allow for some crescendo, but I think in real life it would be performed where the trumpets blare in sustain, and then push for an extra "zip" at the end of the phrase.

I would add Violins one octave above the trumpets in unison. With 2nd in unison. And piccolo up there as well. Get some mV Violas going with the Horns as well. I have a secret trick that is done to make Horns sound incredible, but I'm afraid it's on a "insider" relationship level of sharing only (it's quite something). Some tricks the magician simply cannot reveal publicly. But you will see that the Violas on the horns will bring your Horn lines out to a new level of strength.

Be sure NOT to use any woodwinds to double any notes in the brass. That would be a mistake. Instead use metal winds such as flute and piccolo.

Evan Evans

[DCB]

Thanks, Evan, for listening (despite the apparent discomfort caused by the terrible mix!) and for you comments (all of which I find very helpful and thought provoking).

Could you clarify the expression "MIDI pumping effect" with respect to the horns?

I should have mentioned that this recording was mixed to be played in a church, through speakers located high above the congregation. I left it relatively dry in the expectation that the building would add more ambience. Getting the right ambience, especially on percussion is always tricky, I find. Maybe I would do better with ambiently recorded percussion samples? I did actually add some extra NFX reverb to the percussion in this mix (in addition to the global outboard reverb that went on the whole thing), but I guess that may not have been sufficient.

As regards the orchestration, specifically the matter of doubling brass parts with strings, I am not so sure. Wouldn't layering too much together simply lead to a uniform "orchestral" tone color, rather than allowing the different instruments and divisions to stand out in contrast to each other? When orchestrating, I tend to be conscious of the fact that there are many individual instruments there, rather than treating the whole ensemble as a single "orchestral instrument". I like to bring out those contrasts. Perhaps, however, I do this at the expense of the overall blend (which admittedly is important too).

Besides the mix and the orchestration, would anyone care to comment also on the compositional and thematic structure of the piece?

Looking forward to further comments

[evan evans]

@Another User said:

As regards the orchestration, specifically the matter of doubling brass parts with strings, I am not so sure. Wouldn't layering too much together simply lead to a uniform "orchestral" tone color, rather than allowing the different instruments and divisions to stand out in contrast to each other?

You'd think so. And this inner conflict is definately something that is found in many experienced composer's works. However, a full orchestral work can have many colors all while still using most if not all of the orchestra. You find this moral dilemma come up often with composer's who are not writing orchestrally. Instead they are writing using music theory, and melodically, usually at the piano. Instead of writing inherently for the orchestra, they find themselves "arranging" their composition for the orchestra. Writing for full orchestra is no small feat. It needs to be worked up to (starting with solo works, duos, then trios, quartets, etc). But once a composer is truly there, than they will find orchestral devices that will actually become the composition. At that point, they have become a pure orchestral composer. Barring that accomplishment, one can only achieve a "psuedo" orchestral composition through the use of orchestration. If this is where one is at, I recommend still using much of the orchestra for their "arranging". it will sound more professional at any one moment, and that will go much farther than giving them more variation but at a lesser quality of sound.

Evan Evans

[DCB]

Here is a different mix of the same piece (more ambient, for studio listening):

http://www.buist.org/david/WeddingOvertureGS3.mp3

[Leon Willett]

Evan, please share your magicians horns secret (or change the theme of your website :shock[:)]

[[;)]]

BTW, is it unison with marcato bassoons for bite?

[evan evans]

@Leon Willett said:

Evan, please share your magicians horns secret (or change the theme of your website :shock[:)]
[[;)]]
BTW, is it unison with marcato bassoons for bite?

Leon,

Yeah I do have SOME secrets. These days, everyone is just copying each other. I don't give out the information unless the person deserves it. They need to be one of my students to be sure, or a respected peer.

No, it is no bassoons, but you are not too far off. That's all I'm saying.

And this is only for Tutti unison lines anyway, like melodies.

Evan Evans

[Leon Willett]

[[:D]]

Okay, okay.... er... how about unison with violas? But you'd still need lift from somewhere. Jurassic parc has unison with violas, bassoons and glock, which is a lovely sound--and you really only hear the horns, it doesn't get mushy.

Ah, what the hell. I have a friend in Carmel who I'll be visiting next summer, and then I'll beat it out of you [[:D]] lol

[Ackerdemiker]

hi there,

I´m just 5 minutes in this forum, just locking and just waiting for my Pro Edition, so I don´t know what is exactly possible, I just can hear the demos and dream about it... ;o) (give me one week and I´ll be back...*smile*)...

ok, so the first I heard was something I didn´t hear: A Room... !!! Think about it: more instruments, more room... it´s perhaps a little bit too simple, beacause I know that it could be very interresting to hear a symphonic Orchestra (like a Wagner Orchestra...) in a 20qm room, but this is normally not our personel history of hearing music... ( so we normally hear french horns with a long reverb, far away a.s.o.)

2nd thing is: I miss a little bit the full Orchestra-sound. I think you wanted to make it big, bigger... but I cannot hear it... it´s just a little bit... normally we make in this point the mistake to double the voices and to add other instruments playing the same...

remember waht Arnold Schoenberg said: What we can say with one voice, we should say with one oce...

ok, this is one point you did, you made it with the voices you wanted to hear... but it sounds not so fat I would expect (in the way of the art of the piece...)

so perhaps you should think about making it a little bit deeper, more fat... and it´s no question of EQ I think... perhaps you had to use more instruments...for example a little bit woodwind in addition to the strings...( in contrast of what Schoenberg said, but in YOUR case, it would be nessesary perhaps?)

last point: you are using in the beginning horns with a crescendo... I think you would like to here that they are on the point there and then they make their swell..(sorry for my english!)... I miss this playing "at the point"...like: Taaaa....TaTaTaTaaaa....TaTaTaTaTaTaaa.... ! It must be there! But in your case you think it, but the longer notes make a crescendo, so it´s not on the point, it comes...later...(DahaaaAAAA...DahahahaaaaAAAA)! Perhaps you should think about a Subito-piano or a Forte-piano with an additional crescendo... but don´t do this too much it could be too much...so not every time...but perhaps better then now... because you hear this accent you want to have (I think you want to have it?)

at least: nice piece, keep on working....!!! Everyone who makes music makes the world a little bit better... ;o)

take care,

Acker

[Ackerdemiker]

wow, now I´ve heard the "more reverb version"...

Better, better, better... the most problems are solved...

now last point in my opinion is the crescendo-horns... think about a forte-piano...they are there, go away and will be back again... [:O])

greets,

Acker

[Ackerdemiker]

Evan...

In my opinion your "secret" (is it really a secret?) is in using the right room for the horns and in the voicing...!!! Not just USING the sound, it´s USING the POSSIBILITY of colour...!!!!

[:O]) I don´t write more, but I think that´s it or? I like the way you write... [:O]) nice...!!!

[evan evans]

@Leon Willett said:

[[:D]] Okay, okay.... er... how about unison with violas? But you'd still need lift from somewhere. Jurassic parc has unison with violas, bassoons and glock, which is a lovely sound--and you really only hear the horns, it doesn't get mushy. Ah, what the hell. I have a friend in Carmel who I'll be visiting next summer, and then I'll beat it out of you [[:D]] lol

Deal.

[:)]

Evan Evans

P.S. I mentioned the Violas above. it is almost there. This is not so obvious. It's quite a technique and a special trick.

[William]

There are no "tricks."

"Tricks" are for fools and prostitutes.

There is only good writing, or bad writing.

[DCB]

Thanks, Ackerdemiker, for those comments. As I already mentioned, the first version was mixed to be played in a church: that's why it is so dry. The second version is for listening at home or in the studio.

I think I understand your point about adding a fp< crescendo to the longer notes of the "fanfare" passages. Unfortunately, that is one articulation I find lacking in VSL. There are fp, sfz, sffz, and also crescendos of various lengths, but no crescendo notes beginning with a sharp attack. To create this kind of effect you have to layer two articulations together: a staccato or sfz note to give the attack, and a crescendo for the swell. I tried to do this in the trumpet melody at 01:07 and 02:38, but I did not succeed in getting exactly the sound I really wanted. It is probably possible to obtain a good effect by layering, but it would be much easier if VSL had recorded some samples of brass instruments playing fp< (like in Dan Dean's Solo Brass library which I also have).

[evan evans]

@William said:

"Tricks" are for fools and prostitutes.

What do you think film composers are?

[;)]

Evan Evans

[Ackerdemiker]

@William said:

There are no "tricks."

"Tricks" are for fools and prostitutes.

There is only good writing, or bad writing.

William... I don´t share your opinion about prostitutes... or was it about composers? *smile*
Good writing - bad writing ... BIG WORDS ... it´s said simple but perhaps you can tell me a little bit more of the facts which are making you able to decide if it was bad or good...

A.

[mathis]

Good writing is ... ... .... ... ? ..... ... ?....... .. ...?
..... : when you don´t use tricks. .... .. ........ .. .... [[:|]]




[:D] [:D] [:D] [:D] [:D] [:D] [:D]

[Ackerdemiker]

@mathis said:

Good writing is ... ... .... ... ? ..... ... ?....... .. ...?
..... : when you don´t use tricks. .... .. ........ .. ....

oh, thank you very much... NOW I understand... [:O]) Now I´ll be able to become a really good composer... I have got the secret... ThankU [:P]

[evan evans]

Are these guys mocking you William?
If so, I wish I understood so I COULD JOIN EM! [6]

[;)]

Evan Evans

[Ackerdemiker]

in my opinion the "trick" is in "good writing"...!!!

[:D]