This is silly. I hope PAW will contact VSL and share information, and then it's up to VSL to take appropriate action.
/Chris
/Chris
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Nice concept, but simply not true. i think I'm allowed to say that I'm working mainly in completly professional environments, and you wouldn't believe _how_ many people admit openly that they use cracked programs (and even more often pirated sound-libraries).
Well... I disagree. I would say its definately is true. Sure it's true for many programs like Windows, Office and others where you cant determine they were used to produce the final product. However very few, if any, professional composers would use pirated products for projects they earn money on. Why? Becuase anyone can hear where the sample is from, and could simply look them up to see if they own a copy. I can hear VSL performance instruments, SAM brass etc miles away - very few would be so stupid.
I would dare say that the amount of money VSL looses on piracy is very limited. Thats not saying that there arent pirated versions out there, or that those using them are doing something legally and morally wrong - but from an econmic standpoint the loss is almost non-existant
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@Christian Marcussen said:
[...] I would dare say that the amount of money VSL looses on piracy is very limited. Thats not saying that there arent pirated versions out there, or that those using them are doing something legally and morally wrong - but from an econmic standpoint the loss is almost non-existant
I would say that for each legit version of VSL-products thera are at least four pirated copies, as a rough estimation. (This doesn't mean that every user gives away his his stuff four times, it's just to give you an relation.) When we now calculate that only 25% percent of the pirates do _real_ work with their stolen copies, you understand that piracy actually _halves_ our potential income, making our products more expensive in return.
... and I think this estimation is very conservative, BTW.
Is this what you would really call "economically non-existant" ...? [8o|]
And while we're at it: As the project leader for our MIR-developement I can assure you that this great innovation won't see the market before the copy-protection is as good as it can get, nowadays - for exactly the reason explained above. So: piracy not only costs _ your_ money, but hinders fast development of new products on the top of it.
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library -
Let me get this right - You think there are 4 pirated versions of VSL for each ligit, and you think 25% of these get used for real work? I VERY much doubt those figures, esepcialy with VSL. If that is the case it means for each legit version of VSL there is a professional composer using a pirated version? Come on! I would be very suprised if that were true.
Ofcourse if you know this, then I guess i'm wrong - but these estimates sound far from conservative, in fact they sound dead wrong to me. So I would still say, unless proven wrong, that the money you guys are loosing due to piracy is fairly small. I know for a fact several people using pirated samples and the minute they earned money they bought the samples.
That said, i undertsand completely why you want better protection for something like MIR since its very hard to prove that some music was done with MIR. With samples however I would say its fairly easy, and therfore a far too dangerous endevor for a professional composer.
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I think the bigger point is that if every pirated copy, whether used for real work or not, was actually *purchased* it would represent a huge amount of money. Most of us shelled out a lot of cash for the VSL, and without piracy it could be a tiny bit cheaper.
And may I say, it was worth EVERY PENNY!!! [:D]
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To Dietz:
I disagree with you, because exactly like Galleddrim says, as a student one can't afford all the samples/software you need to be operatable, so HOW CAN ONE LEARN TO WORK WITH THOSE SAMPLES AND SOFTWARE???
To be honest (héhé I'm the first one to admit!!! yes I'm guilty), as a student composition, I HAVE used libraries which I DID NOT own.
Let me make a fast calculation: to be able to work with samples you need a lot of stuff: PC or Mac (at least 1200 euro to have something useable), software sequencer (i.e. Logic: 1000 euro), software sampler (i.e. gigastudio: 600 euro), good sound card (400 euro, and that's not too much), samples... (well that's difficult, but take i.e. a simple tool like Garritan Personal Orchestra, just for orchestral sounds, it costs you 250 euro, or take i.e. library's from Miroslav or Dan Dean or Kirk Hunter, they cost you at least 500 to 1000 euro), than add a masterkeyboard (to have something reasonably good, it will cost you again between 500 and 1000 euro), eventually a controller (around 200 euro?).
Well sum it all up and you have a bill between 4000 and 5000 euro. And admit it guys, to have a PROFESSIONAL setup you must double or triple the amount... Which student or even good amateur can afford that???
You know, I still didn't invest (although I was planning to do it this summer) in VSL, just because of the price. And I know, compared to all the work programmers and producers of software and sample creating companies, it's NOT expensive i.m.o. (we already discussed this before: 3200 euro for a complete orchestra is NOT EXPENSIVE!!!). But that's just not the point in this discussion. All together it IS a great deal of money to invest, and certainly for students and good amateurs, who in fact mostly even don't use it in productions to earn money from.
I completely agree to the fact, that once you use it in productions, and you start to earn money, you have NO EXCUSE AT ALL but to have licenses of everything you use for your production.
Well that's just some of my thoughts...
PS Look, who do I have to tip about those links? Because in fact, it's soooo easy to find them...
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When I was a student, I decided in 1970 - 1972, that I was never going to be good enough to become a classical musician. That's to say, a performing classical musician. No patience or stamina.
So I decided that I would have to go and work as a session keyboard musican for record labels and rock musicians. More money. No computers or samples in those days. Just hardware.
At the age of around 19/20, I decided that I needed a Hammond B3, a Leslie cabinet, and a little later a Fender Rhodes and a MiniMoog. I needed to go and see my bank manager to borrow the money, and eventually, based on guarantor's, finished up with about 3 grand. In those days, you could buy a pretty good house for 3 grand; thats how much it is in todays terms. In real terms, things are much cheaper now.
What I am now beginning to realize, is that I should have broken into a music shop and just stolen it. [8-)]
The trouble with people today is, they want everything NOW. They don't want the responsibilty that goes with having to raise the necessary cash. They feel they have a RIGHT to it and always use the excuse that it's too expensive, thus abrogating their conscience and responsibility.
If someone breaks into one's house and steals all their hardware, it's the same as intellectual theft as far as the law is concerned. Don't get caught, because they are now taking this, rightly so, very seriously.
Someone earlier mentioned that companies like VSL lose money on this and 'tough'. Yes, I suppose that's right. But if you can't afford the technology right this minute, well, tough too. This post will not change anything, but they're aren't any excuses. None!
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Well, "Virtual Guitarist", this is exactly the same totally ridiculous argumentation I hear all the time when it comes to software piracy. You´re DEAD WRONG!
If you can´t afford anything, you can´t afford it. PERIOD!
There is absolutely no right on this world which legitimates you to act illegally only because you "can´t afford it". Come on, give me a break. This is outrageous!
It´s not only silly and dumb, it is totally unresponsible.
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Not only that, but to have the nerve to come to a developer’s forum, while not having bought any of his products, and to proclaim that it is OK to steal his work because the money is lacking is outrageous. [[:|]]
It this was the prevailing attitude among people, VSL would cease to exist. Sometimes people forget that there is a whole team developing the products, musicians have to be hired, so there is a lot of cost involved.
If you don’t have the money to buy a car, you don’t buy one. You don’t go out to the carpark of a VW dealer and drive off with one of the cars, shouting: “I’ll pay for it when and if I have the money for it!”.
Ripping off a developer is not a necessity but a choice, and a very wrong one, because it turns you into a thief.
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Software Piracy is theft.
Virtual Guitarist, how would you call a person, who steals a car in order to practice to get his drivers license?
You would call him a thief.
Even if he then buys a car.
This whole discussion is ludicrous and obsolete - Please, let´s just drop that thread and get back to work, before I loose my temper...
[8o|]
Marnix
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To "Mister lawyer know-it-all" Jean:
In austrian and german jurisprudence, there is the notion of "Diebstahl geistigen Eigentums", which translates into "Theft of intellectual property", when it comes to copyright infringement.
Just to remind you, area of jurisdiction for all VSL contracts and license agreements is Vienna/Austria.
Sorry, if I am getting offensive when adressing you, but you weren´t exactly polite either...
Because I am working for VSL doesn´t automatically mean that I am stupid.
Marnix
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Sorry, if I am getting offensive when adressing you, but you weren´t exactly polite either...
I am not aware I ever proclaimed that just because someone works at VSL, that must mean he is stupid. Are you confusing me with Evan Evans? [:D] (Sorry Evan, could not resist!)
Because I am working for VSL doesn´t automatically mean that I am stupid.
I certainly don’t want to offend anyone, apologies if you got that impression. Just setting the record straight with some insights from a professional. [[;)]]
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Ok, all points taken... [[:|]]
Gawd, go and discuss with a lawyer...
I guess I was just p***d off with the topic along with Virtual Guitarists arguments and didn´t want to admit I used the wrong word. Just childish behaviour. [:O]ops:
You´re right, I´m wrong (and a "freizeitjurist" and a "wannabe-know-it-all").
Still, the analogy with the stolen car illustrates the way I feel about the whole issue, when somebody starts to tell me, he uses pirated/unlicensed software for "evaluation purposes" only.
Marnix
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@marnix said:
Still, the analogy with the stolen car illustrates the way I feel about the whole issue, when somebody starts to tell me, he uses pirated/unlicensed software for "evaluation purposes" only.
Marnix
These days with so many good demos to listen to (for samples) there is really no excuse for "try before you buy"; unlike the old days, when one could spend £400 on the recommendation of some magazine and find only one really useful sample on the whole disc.
However, in the past I have booked an appointment at Time and Space, turned up with a load of gear and tried all the stuff I was interested in buying. Unfortunately I bought far too much (according to my Bank Manager), but at least I knew that I would find a use for most of what I selected. I think that the "free" instruments that are given away with apps such as Giga are great in that it means that you know what you are buying.
DG
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This threads kinda pointless. Of course VSL and many other libraries are available on p2p programs and you can't get it taken off of there. You could upload your own 3gb files full of garbage or whatever and name it VSL just to mess with piraters. Often when i'm d/l mp3's I d/l something and it turns out to be the wrong song, I hate that, imagine d/l 3gb to find out it's soemhting else! That would suck for them.
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@GTBannah said:
So, Jean,
We have now got past the nuances and semantics of theft vs copyright infringment.
What is your view on theft/copyright infringment?
No more dancing, please .... [[;)]]
Lest anybody misunderstand my controversial post: I believe copyright infringment is a kind of theft. You are, in effect, misappropriating (usually we just call it stealing) someone else's intellectual property. It doesn't matter if the property is physical or immaterial. Just like sleeping on the job is employee theft, copyright infringement IS stealing.
Now . . . I must admit, I have at times borrowed software illegally. That is, I always pay for what I plan to use, otherwise I delete it. I know I shouldn't. But I just never feel comfortable spending chunks of cash on something I've never tried. For the advocate of demo tracks: try before you buy is very different. It's the difference between test driving a car before buying it and seeing someone else drive it on a closed track. The confidence level they afford is incomparable.
My original post here was intended to open a line of dialog with the developers as to how they might lessen the chance of intellectual property theft (or even "borrowing") in the future.
And in case anybody is wondering, I am a full paying customer of VSL and all other sample libraries I own. You should be too.
~Chris
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To Dietz:
I disagree with you, because exactly like Galleddrim says, as a student one can't afford all the samples/software you need to be operatable, so HOW CAN ONE LEARN TO WORK WITH THOSE SAMPLES AND SOFTWARE???
To be honest (héhé I'm the first one to admit!!! yes I'm guilty), as a student composition, I HAVE used libraries which I DID NOT own.
Let me make a fast calculation: to be able to work with samples you need a lot of stuff: PC or Mac (at least 1200 euro to have something useable), software sequencer (i.e. Logic: 1000 euro), software sampler (i.e. gigastudio: 600 euro), good sound card (400 euro, and that's not too much), samples... (well that's difficult, but take i.e. a simple tool like Garritan Personal Orchestra, just for orchestral sounds, it costs you 250 euro, or take i.e. library's from Miroslav or Dan Dean or Kirk Hunter, they cost you at least 500 to 1000 euro), than add a masterkeyboard (to have something reasonably good, it will cost you again between 500 and 1000 euro), eventually a controller (around 200 euro?).
Well sum it all up and you have a bill between 4000 and 5000 euro. And admit it guys, to have a PROFESSIONAL setup you must double or triple the amount... Which student or even good amateur can afford that???
You know, I still didn't invest (although I was planning to do it this summer) in VSL, just because of the price. And I know, compared to all the work programmers and producers of software and sample creating companies, it's NOT expensive i.m.o. (we already discussed this before: 3200 euro for a complete orchestra is NOT EXPENSIVE!!!). But that's just not the point in this discussion. All together it IS a great deal of money to invest, and certainly for students and good amateurs, who in fact mostly even don't use it in productions to earn money from.
I completely agree to the fact, that once you use it in productions, and you start to earn money, you have NO EXCUSE AT ALL but to have licenses of everything you use for your production.
Well that's just some of my thoughts...
PS Look, who do I have to tip about those links? Because in fact, it's soooo easy to find them...
Oh come on!
I'm 23, I'm certainly not particulary wealthy and I am not guaranteed an income from composing, but I still went to see the bank manager and got a loan out to get VSL and the computers and software required to run it, because it is something that I really want to make a career out of. It was an investment I guess, I don't regret it.... Now its down to me to make the money back.
