I would imagine that getting the original sampled performers to play the exact same way for similar articulation samples would be near impossible. I imagine that getting each tone sample to match the rest is a feat on its own. The consistency which allows these samples to appear to us as "instruments" seems to me to be a great effort. That is what we paid for.

What draws us to this product is it potential for realism in the sound of the final audio. Personally, I don't care *how* they achieve it. If a competitor of VSL figures out how to do it better -- maybe without timestretched samples -- guess they will be able to charge more. God bless them!

I think what we have here is a matter of marketing seeming a touch ahead of technology. VSL brags about the samples, the silent stage, the "real" elements used, while saying little about the special tricks and audio blending involved. Marketing-wise, this makes sense for this kind of product. We want realism and would be jarred by seeing "timestretching" in the marketing.

But, heck, we *know* that the samplers we play these samples through use crossfades and envelopes and all manner of "synthetic" elements to make this all blend. And these forums are riddled with the digital advice of how to make things sound more realistic -- reverb settings, new instrument programming, etc. Basically: whatever works to achieve the end result.

Herb & co. : You used a synthetic method to achieve a certain result. This is not in your marketing anywhere. But -- oh wait -- these are samples, playing through samplers... on computers, no less!

And darn it, it works!

For my money, I am happy.

When you -- or someone else -- figure a way to make it better, you will get more money from me. [:)]

It's interesting that some of the issues here are reflected in a post of mine almost two weeks ago:

Originally posted by herb
Just want to say, that there is really no problem if you like to discuss Eric Persings Spectrasonics products here. I'm a big fan of Eric, I'll try to invite, maybe he gives some exclusive feedback regarding his products here. Sorry for the disruption, best Herb
------------------------------------------------------------------------



No disruption at all Herb.

BTW I just did an ambient/orchestral cue (demo) using VSL (stac/pfp/cresc) mostly in strings and brass with Absynth and Stylus and it really came out well. The combination of wonderful performances of pfp and cresc instruments along with such great sound quality really allow the composer to make musical statements that were once reserved for live orchestra only. The stac instruments are remarkably versatile for both aggressive scale passages and hits (the brass Stac are great!)

The pfp I referred to were 2, 4 and 6 sec's.

Dave Connor

Herb, Dietz & company,

Ditto here. I personally don't care if you only recorded one articualtion of each instrument for the entire library and still achieved the product you have created. Everything you've included in the library is useful, regardless of the means.

And I really don't care about being polite to this idiot anymore. No emoticons/smiley faces. No BS:

Please just kick Evan Evans off of this user forum already. Opinions are fine to express, but he's in a constant state of combat, abusing you and your public forum. I find him a true annoyance, extremely disruptive to anything that would normally be beneficial about forums and debate, and possibly turning potential business away for you.

And I reiterate to Evan Evans, for real, get a life.

Dear forum-members -

please let's keep ourselves in check. Don't let us get roped in with verbal injuries.

Finally, I should better have sticked to our doctrine: Don't feed the trolls! ;-] How fatuous to think that a direct and clear statement could change minds like theirs for the better.

****

... back to our normally scheduled program, Ladies & Gentlemen!

Peace,

/Dietz

@Carlos D said:

Herb & co. : You used a synthetic method to achieve a certain result. This is not in your marketing anywhere.

Carlos. You said it. That's all I am really getting at. And that it surprised me for those reasons you quote here above.

Herb & Co,
Wanted also to say that I have no hard feelings, and if you wish me to censor myself I will. That is a decision up to you. I will continue to be me, but maybe not entirely here.

It seems a lot of you are railing me for this. Don't understand why. maybe because you don't care or something. Well thanks for keeping it all into global perspective. Still I would have thought I had sampled performances at every duration as the marketing litereature touted. Nothing anyone says can take that away from me (and likely many users).

it might not be worth much but there it is. One more topic out of the 800 or so I've posted. i don't put much weight on it. But there it is.

ok?

[*-)]

Evan Evans

@Another User said:

Although you're as powerful as 50 users (or was it 60?), you destroy the vibe _and_ the sense of this board for several hundreds (or thousands) of others.

oh I don't think so. I've seen much worse. And to be honest VSL is the one who did this not me. I just talked about it and how it made me feel as a consumer/customer.

It's still a bright and shiny inspiring day over here!

[:)]

Evan Evans

Well... seems you have misread what Dietz says, if you think it only concerns this post, or only what you say...

@Iwan Roth said:

Do not say everything you know, because you may look like a fool...... [[;)]]

Iwan, that's what makes me who I am. I am not hiding like most people. I have flaws. I am smart and dumb, strong and weak, private and public, humble and selfish. But what I want to be remembered most for is that I was OPEN and shared all my life with everyone.

[:)]

Evan Evans

@evanevans said:

[...] Still I would have thought I had sampled performances at every duration as the marketing litereature touted.[...] Evan Evans

You just don't get it, do you? Go back to Herb's message and read again. And yes - censoring your own messages from now on could refrain me from doing so.

/Dietz

To Evan:

At some stage in your life, you'll learn that you don't have to answer EVERYTHING and always have the last word. The net result of doing so is that you simply piss people off even further.

To Herb and VSL:
You have created a remarkable library which never ceases to amaze me. Your interaction with customers is exceptional.

I remember when the first edition just came out, I expressed my disappointment at the absence of looped samples. There was an initial reluctance at this suggestion, the attitude being that players were not naturally "looped", but after some good discussion, the concensus prevailed that because we are not using live players, we are using samplers, we could drop the attention to reality and move towards a product that even "transcends" reality.

Now, in the Pro Edition, we have many looped samples and I sincerely thank VSL for that. (I could use even more......)

We are living in the 21st century where vocals are pitch-corrected, orchestras are sampled and.........notes are timestretched.

Great!! Let the progress continue!

Regards - Colin

originally posted by herb:
.....we were able to offer 100% length optimized samples.

...and this is the gist which nobody seems to be aware in the meantime. the samples are _OPTIMIZED_ to an equal length inside a certain patch, nothing else. we actually recorded 2, 4 and 6 sec pfp samples with and without vibrato. i can testify this fact, because i directed the recordings.
insinuating we are faking samples is 1. untrue and 2. devaluating the tremendous effort of our musicians.
it's a kinky situation: on one hand everybody's longing for samples which sounds real played, that means they are imperfect, like humans. on the other hand the enormous skill and work of our editors make this stuff playable on a keyboard, that means they need to effect a compromise in certain cases. if you like to find _something_, you'll find it.

perpetual nagging is such a nice sport, but very useless.

Michael Hula

@michi said:

We actually recorded 2, 4 and 6 sec pfp samples with and without vibrato. i can testify this fact, because i directed the recordings.
insinuating we are faking samples is 1. untrue and 2. devaluating the tremendous effort of our musicians.

No one is insinuating that. No one said that. Please don't put any of those words in my mouth that's for certain.

Now, thank you for letting us all know that you did actually record 2,4,6 NV, and V samples. If you had said that in the beginning I think many people wouldn't be all over me about this.

Having had everyone digest this truth, I am not sure the word "faking" is of teh best use here, but if that's the word you want to use, than you are wrong. You guys DID fake samples. But it was apparently a good decision. One made wisely.

I really don't know why everyone is getting on my case about this.

1. You guys "faked" (your words) samples.
2. I show this here.
3. The cat is out of the bag.
4. Truth demystified.
5. Only people hurt now is VSL ... the customer at least has peace of mind of not being surprised by this
6. I love VSL
7. I support VSL
8. I defend VSL adamantly (there are at least 5 sales I know of directly related to my marketing of the library to BIG people in Hollywood)
9. I use VSL everyday
10. I think Herb is great
11. The VSL team seems to be annoyed by me which is common fodder for a rebel (someone on the bleeding edge with outlandish ideas one day to become the norm!)
12. And finally dudes, THIS AIN'T MY TOPIC! lol [:D] Amazing how this became about me. Does anyone else have a life? Or is this Evan Evans is wrong and should be persecuted day? Why is everyone in denial here? All I am saying are truths. Seems most people missed the neutral stance I have on this finding. I am just a vessel with a head on my shoulders.
13. I won't hesitate next time to bring anything to anyone's attention, good or bad, or interesting or not.

And I hope MICHI that you aren't insinuating that I am perpetually nagging. If so you have misinterpreted me. If anything I am being perpetually railed upon. It really doesn't take much to say something (something true I might add), but I think it does take alot to have 15 people group together in common thought and rail on someone out of some kind of repressed denial.

But again, whatever. Must I say it again? I still love the library.

And most importantly, THIS AIN'T MY TOPIC.

Thanks all. On to the next interesting subject please. i think we got all teh answers we needed here.

[[:)]]

Evan Evans

P.S. The smiley faces are really how I feel. They are emoticons. Should I be sad to be alive? Ungrateful? I feel great. i am happy, content, and confident. And by the way, I write some pretty damn good music, get lot's of jobs, have a wonderful family, live in a beautiful place, own my own home, listen to the finest music, eat the greatest foods, and USE THE BEST DARN SAMPLED ORCHESTRA LIBRARY in the world!!! The VSL!!! Is there anything wrong with being happy under my conditions? [[:)]]

@JMMusic said:

Please just kick Evan Evans off of this user forum already.

What IS going on here?

I would have thought that by now we all know what Evan is like and would have surely gotten used to his mood swings. He's made nearly 800 posts to this forum: some of them ludicrous and some of them extremely interesting and articulate. He knows if he goes too far, he's going to get a kicking.

Surely, the sort of people that buy an extremely complicated product like VSL, for example, are mostly fairly intelligent I would have thought. They can surely work out for themselves what's important and what's not when it comes to samples. Who cares? Really? If it works, it works. Samples aren't real anyway.

This thread isn't going to change anyones mind about buying VSL or any other library. I would say from a 'company' point of view though Evan, Cool It in the nicest possible way.

Regarding the original quote about removing people from forums; that way leads to madness and then pretty soon you have anarchy. Anyone makes another suggestion like that, as far as I'm concerned will become my new official hobby, until I get kicked off.

Best regards

paul, i'd like to second that.
also i for myself do agree to differ on a series of evan's statements but i would not make removing a user from the VSL forum a topic unless there are severe legal issues forcing us to do so.
ourdays the right of free speech is not obvious any more and will not support intentions to introduce restrictions here, especially regarding censorship or banning.
although this doesn't mean some post could be more well-balanced imho
christian

[quote=cm]paul, i'd like to second that.

Thank you very much Christian.

I don't like talking about members in the third person but Evan is probably as mad as a hatter sometimes, but I wouldn't want to be without him here. [:D]

He can be quite humerous sometimes.

[I] Besides, its easier to control a thing when you can see it.

Best regards

Paul

Ok - for a last time:

@Another User said:

[...] And I hope MICHI that you aren't insinuating that I am perpetually nagging. If so you have misinterpreted me.

See above. One step forward, two steps back. Insinuations are _your_ part - and I'm afraid that you are high-handed enough to not even know it.

****

It's your luck that I won't have enough time answer all the coming cascades of your self-referring threads over and over again. Be aware though that the line between "much" and "too much" is thin.

Back to work now -

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

Right.....

1. I just wasted 10 minutes of my life reading this RIDICULOUS threaad, when i could have been making music.
2. Who cares.
3. Who cares....
4. etc


The main thing is this - I am in a results orientated business as we all are.
Do we care how we get the sound that we need, or is the process that allows us to achieve it more important?
For my money, i have ABSOLUTELY no qualms in letting you manipulate samples if you did, or don't if you dont need to. Herb, all we care about is "Can i make something sound as real as possible with this library?"
The answer is clearly more or a yes with this library than any other.

Secondly, (and i say this as someone that has gotten to know Evan outside of this forum, and like him) - I am afraid that i agree with Herb and Dietz... His comments were out of line and not put well, but you need to understand, that sometimes certain people like to seem controversial - It's who they are.
Would you choose not to read a newspaper because you didn't agree with all the articles?(Although I agree that comments may need to be toned down a bit, as i really don't want to waste ANOTHER ten minutes of my life reading such a pointless thread....)

Lastly, as someone who uses samples every day of my life, my one bugbear at the moment is the lack of ability to timestretch accurately - crescendo lengths, but also just generally sounds that need it. Any cross company work with the guys at melodyne would be greatly appreciated.
But Herb, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make sure that if and when they make a product that can be used in logic, it really does what it claims to do, as I bought melodyne for use with the bridge, thru logic, and it is too flawed and bugged to use effectively - and not really well implemented for logic use. As a standalone product, it is amazing.


Thats my 10 cents worth - now, can we get back to talking about music ?
[:D]


David T

With pleasure! :-]

/Dietz

@Dietz said:

Ok

It's your luck that I won't have enough time answer all the coming cascades of your self-referring threads over and over again. Be aware though that the line between "much" and "too much" is thin.

Back to work now -

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

I did write some "critical" statements about evans writing in this forum quite some time ago. In the meantime I think that evan is actually consciously or unconsciously, I do not know, looking for reactions of the kind he is provoking right now. In his last post he does write about him writing some great music..... Be sensible, if someone really is sure of himself he will not write this, because there is no need for it. So evan is playing a game with us, for whatever reason I also do not know, and if we do react, we go in to his game. and this is not worth the time and the energy. I mean this war about time stretched samples is such a big nonsense, but I can understand that committed people do react the way you at VSL do. Just consider from where it comes from..... which is IMHO not exactly what he does consider himself-at least in his statements at this forum.

Iwan

@Carlos D said:

Herb & co. : You used a synthetic method to achieve a certain result. This is not in your marketing anywhere.

Carlos. You said it. That's all I am really getting at. And that it surprised me for those reasons you quote here above.
...


Umm... I was trying to be a bit funny with that quote. Since *all* of this is a synthetic effort. My point was that we paid the VSL folks to balance the synthetic and the real in an optimal way to give us the "instruments" and realism we require.

When your Hollywood composer friend finds a better way of doing this, let him present it to us, or to the world.

---

As far as the tone of this discussion: I don't think anyone should be banned or censored, and I applaud the VSL folks for keeping this forum as open as possible. Aside from things illegal, obscene, profane, libelous, or otherwise hazardous to the members and company, this forum should be open.

That being said, we will arrive at a place which almost all internet forums come to: a conflict of personality and, for lack of a better term, a conflict of micro-culture.

When people meet face to face, they quickly determine if they speak the same language(s) and follow the same formalities and protocols. Common interests come second. Here, and elsewhere in the internet, we are brought together by common interest first, and *then* we find out when our protocols conflict. And oh boy, do we ever find out.

Evan's communications here are known to those who visit often. He has said that he likes to speak his mind and thoughts; to put it all out there. I tend to reflect and process, consider other perspectives, hold back where I am not sure, but stand tough on core principles. I'd like to think that I generate more light than heat, and I care more about a common end result or understanding than about having myself heard.

We can disagree about technical stuff. We can disagree about musical stuff. But it is always somewhat harder to get past our "protocol" differences. It is easy to take offense. And the desire is strong for the offender to realize why or how he/she is offending. In an open forum, sometimes, you just have to let it go.

Evan, I wish that you would realize that some of your posts communicate a tone that offends. You well know that this is not the first time. Personally, I am kind of used to it from you. I can take you with a grain of salt. Others may not find it so easy. I don't blame them.

I can only hope that you'd make some adjustments for the greater good here.

Other members and moderators: we may just have to let this go. It's the price of an open forum. Let's enjoy the process and, most of all, the music.

Carlos