Polyphonic Legato Instruments

[julian]

On a number of occassions I have wanted to run a solo legato line into a chord or keep one note running and add an octave. If the sound I want is the legato/interval patch then I have to load up another midi track and VI instance.

Would it be possible in a future software revision to have some sort of midi channel implementation within the VI's ? so I could, for example, have a main legato line running on channel 1 and then anything on say channel 2 would not relate to/from the first line (midi channel 1). This would also work very nicely with the polyphonic score settings within Logic, and I guess most other DAW scoring packages. Another benefit would be the ability to re-trigger the same note and keeping the first triggered note running as there would be no atomatic note off on the first channel.

Also I guess with midi implementation the stand alone would have the potential to become multi-timbral (other architecture permitting.)

Julian

[William]

It is possible to have a mono legato instrument and a polyphonic sustain instrument layered on the same channel and do something lke what you are talking about. Though the problem with a legato line running into a chord is which note it is going to. Somehow I always end up using separate tracks in this situation because I try to define where each line is going, even if they are going to a unison. Which means you need different instruments to avoid phasing. I have wondered a similar thing though, if you had a series of two or even more note chords, it would be possible to program the legato to keep track of each line, and transition to the most likely target note. Though that would be a different architecture than the current legato programming, an intelligent interpretation utility inserted into the middle of the process.

[Sapkiller]

Maybe its possible to program a polyphonic legato using the basic rules
of voice leading, eg. no voice crossing etc. ?
Still there could be some difficulties when moving in and out of unison btw
voices.

Would be nice to have this feature.

[DG]

I was thinking about this last week. Just for laughs I looked back at some tracks I've written over the last few months, and realised that in well over 50% of cases I couldn't figure out a "rule" as to which part would join to which. I also realised that I usually want a slightly different velocity xfade on each part, so have resigned myself to using two (or more) tracks for section polyphony.

DG

[julian]

@William said:

Somehow I always end up using separate tracks in this situation because I try to define where each line is going, even if they are going to a unison. Which means you need different instruments to avoid phasing.

Agreed where there is a unison seperate instruments would be required to avoid a phase problem (or stutter delay if the notes weren't together) However the example I was thinking of, for example, is a solo C moving to an E + G. The C+E notes would be on midi 1 and the G note along with a mute C note would be on midi 2 so both notes would have the correct interval transition.

Julian

[DG]

Surely you only get phasing when you approach from the same note? The whole point of legato instruments is that when approaching from different notes, you get a different transition and sample, or have I got that wrong?

DG

[julian]

@DG said:

Surely you only get phasing when you approach from the same note? The whole point of legato instruments is that when approaching from different notes, you get a different transition and sample, or have I got that wrong?

DG

Well spotted! forgot about that. Even more reason to have a polyphonic VI.

Julian

[William]

Yeah DG that is a good point about the same pitches being different notes as targets. I was thinking about lines that in general go to unisons, so they would be starting on the same pitch after joining up. I have a sense of paranoia about unisons, and always want to make it absolutely impossible to have any phasing by using different instruments.

However I have noticed phasing "problems" (debatable) even on solo instruments that are not the same samples. Like two different solo trumpets. If you simply bring them together, it often does NOT sound like a sample of two trumpets and can in fact sound like a phased doubled single sample, to the extent that I have used 3-note ensemble vs. 2-note soli to avoid it. This is where the DVZ guys are trying to attack VI, circling about the Austrian lion like hyenas. (Where'd that come from? oh - large mug of coffee - never mind). However, on the piece I am now working on I am using an absolutely authentic number of ensemble and divided solo instruments, with none of the "pipe organ" fakery they talk about, of too many doublings. It is quite possible to do already with VSL. Sorry, drifting off topic.

[julian]

On occasions in the past when I've tracked a (real) trumpet I've encounered phasing on the same notes. Better the player worse the phasing.

It can still be evident if mic placement is altered - altering the instrument helps more. altering the player helps even more... hey I've an idea why not have 2 players!

But brass - particularly trumpets are prone to the phasing issues.

Julian

[William]

You're right on that - the phasing is characteristic of brass because of the timbre. In fact, I have even noticed phasing with (sampled) bass trombone doubled with tuba. You also hear it a lot with solo strings, but never with ensemble. Also, not quite as much with woodwinds. It has to do with the harmonic and overtone complexity of the sound.

The question is, why do we notice this so much in samples? Being a brass player, I had lots of opportunities to hear this live, but never did. If two trumpets played, it just sounded like two trumpets, as one would expect. So the recording process - especially the SAMPLE recording process - tends to increase it. Though I don't pretend to understand the acoustics of it at all. But whatever the reason, I have changed some orchestrations because of it. Like doubling bass trombone with tuba - it can sound quite bad. Though in general that particular example is not a problem since you so often want them in octaves.

[julian]

@William said:

Being a brass player, I had lots of opportunities to hear this live, but never did. If two trumpets played, it just sounded like two trumpets, as one would expect.

Conforming to type (well most brass players I ever recorded with took their MU break in the pub) it just sounded like 2 trumpets to them even when you'd only booked one!
[[:D]] [[:D]]

Julian

[William]

You're right about brass players. They tend to hang out in bars, also don't take kindly to being told to play softly. They take revenge instead. Trumpets especially. Horn players do the same, though they are more neurotic. Has to do with the number of partials. When you've got that many, you get neurotic.

[Luca A.]

@DG said:

Surely you only get phasing when you approach from the same note? The whole point of legato instruments is that when approaching from different notes, you get a different transition and sample, or have I got that wrong?

I could be wrong, but I think that the transition is different, the sustained tone is not. After all, they could not record different sustains for every single combination of notes... they recorded only the transitions. So you'd have phasing problems as soon as the "transition part" of the sample ends. I ran into this sometime ago, and solved the issue by using two different midi tracks (and two different VI instances) for polyphonic legato lines of the same instrument/section. I transposed one of the instances one halftone up or down to avoid phasing when going into an unison.

[DG]

@DG said:

Surely you only get phasing when you approach from the same note? The whole point of legato instruments is that when approaching from different notes, you get a different transition and sample, or have I got that wrong?

I could be wrong, but I think that the transition is different, the sustained tone is not. After all, they could not record different sustains for every single combination of notes... they recorded only the transitions. So you'd have phasing problems as soon as the "transition part" of the sample ends. I ran into this sometime ago, and solved the issue by using two different midi tracks (and two different VI instances) for polyphonic legato lines of the same instrument/section. I transposed one of the instances one halftone up or down to avoid phasing when going into an unison.
You are correct that there tends to be only one sustain. However, the legato instruments only crossfade into that sustain, and even then only in certain patches. They still have their own "held"note, which is longer for some instruments than others. This is easy to prove, as there are numerous examples in the Strings where approaching from a higher note gives a totally different string on the sustain than that achieved by approaching from a lower note.

DG