Not to take any sides here and it's my personal opinion, but after listening to a couple of demos, I'm not impressed, it hardly sounds like real brass... Hello expression? This is probably good for quick mock ups, one day job, but not good refined big band arrangements.
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"I still find all this speculation over a product that doesn't yet exist quite amusing." It does exist. We have heard some of it. We know what hardware it uses and a core understanding of Ai's user methodology. We don't know the price.
Beyond that, as I read this discussion, I see what the VSL users are looking for, how they budget, how they see through marketing copy and ask pertinent questions. It's all good, DG.
So if for no other reason that cheering Plowman in his lonely outpost, I'll continue.
"When you have a full time assistant, things like multiple PC/Mac set-ups are not a problem." Admittedly true. The Porsche crowd doesn't want to futz with tune-ups and maintenance either, so they hire mechanics.
So it's ironic when, in the Ai copy, you see a kind of cost consciousness at work: the less expensive PC platform, no need for multiple audio cards, no need to re-license the sounds over multiple computers (just Kontakt). They say that the "other" library would need seven computers to run in its totality, and theirs just needs five.
But Drew has touched on the real cost: Ai is asking the user to dramatically de-value the investments already made for the *substitution* of a new library. Can you imagine how few Ai clients don't own VSL already? Those with Mac farms are really taking it on the chin. And we disavow ourselves not only of much of the hardware, but of a working method that has become second nature.
In that context, the real question emerges for commoners like me: what's the in-point? How much cost and labor do I incur grafting a twig of Ai, most likely violins and celli, into my present system? Because the idea of jettisoning all I know and love about VSL is madness to me. And if Ai offers no incremental approach, that in effect is what they're asking me to do.
The answer lies in Ai's market strategy. Is this a commercial venture or a boutique? And I don't mean "boutique" disparagingly. It's their money, their investment, and they are targeting the need for elite sound and service.
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Not to take any sides here and it's my personal opinion, but after listening to a couple of demos, I'm not impressed, it hardly sounds like real brass... Hello expression? This is probably good for quick mock ups, one day job, but not good refined big band arrangements.
All demos should be taken with a grain of salt-- and not all VI demos are as refined as ones which appear here on the VSL forum-- that includes your own great tracks, Guy, if I might say so.
However, while the drum programming is pretty good, I'm less impressed with the bass sound and programming. But BBB offers some characteristics that other sample libraries do not. I believe that much is in the hands of the user as far as programming and feel are concerned, and BBB could really shine in the hands of someone who really knows the style and how to use it. It's not VSL and is not meant to address what VSL addresses. I wouldn't want to use VSL Cube with the intent of rendering the same result of a big band mock up. Besides, the drum and bass tracks are hardly the deal breaker here.
With that said, I would also add that there is little else out there which addresses this gaping hole in VIs. There is GPO Jazz and Big Band, but that offers 2.5 GB of samples. It's not a bad collection for $250 USD, but BBB's 100GB for 9 times the price at least implies that there is more to it than even the demos would indicate.
If one listens to a lot of big band and jazz, it becomes clear that there is a certain "lack of" refinement that is typical and, in an odd sort of way, desired. I appreciate certain aspects of imperfection with this style of music because it's not always "perfection" that is the goal when "excellence" is what is most desired.
Clearly, there is a point where the nature of the samples themselves will part ways with the likes of VSL. But then again, there's nothing out there which has quite done on the whole what VSL has. One day in the future we might be able to compare a 500+ GB big band library with the Cube-- but by then the Cube will have also matured across more hard drives than it does now.
And as we take care with the spec, we can at least embrace the notion that VIs in general have come a very long way and are making new strides. If BBB doesn't go far enough, it certainly goes further than other VIs addressing a similar musical intent. I think it's a very exciting landmark in VI history. No doubt, someone else will come along (if not the Fable people themselves) and take this whole concept a step or two further.
As for AI, I agree with the person who cited a certain sense of redundancy for VSL Cube owners. AI so far is strings only-- and that's not spec... and yes, the hardware liabilities are the real horror since AI states that nothing else can be run concurrently with AI (except for the DAW) for the CPU power it requires.
And a side note to Mac users from AI's FAQs:
No, you can’t use the Mac for the control or sample player functions just yet. Ai is initially releasing our DVZ RT core technology software and sampler communications for PC platforms. Internally, however, our software coding is being done with an eye toward eventual integration with Apple’s Mac OS-X™ operating system, and the libraries themselves are operating system neutral; they work either way; you simply can’t use them on the Mac for now...
That takes some of us off the hook right away!
Dunno chaps-- for me, just keeping tabs with VI development is becoming a very exciting spectator sport. What better season could there be for such a thing as NAMM season?
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Guy - you're talking about Broadway Big Band? You're not impresssed? Expression?
Huh? Did you listen to the Kurt Weill-ish cue? The solo trumpet?
No jazz/pop brass demos I've heard have come within 50 miles of that.
Now, I haven't tried the library and have no idea what it's like to play, but from what I've heard it brings pop horn samples to the level of the big orchestral libraries.
Journalists like me never get excited about new products, of course - I hope I sound suitably droll.
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Droll means humorous. So by your own definition you're suitably funny. Sounds about right.
And yeah, Broadway Big Band is killer and from this viewpoint the highlight of is those two solo trumpets. The saxes are good too.
Look forward to seeing you @ NAMM. Should be an invigorating show this time around.
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Nick,
I admit the solos and drums are cool but the overall timbre of the brass (especially playing together) is weak to me. Give me an example piece of a good brass sound, not solos. in fact sometimes it reminds of stuff done 10 years ago. Hey if you're gonna pay a lot of money for it...
William,
I respect your opinion, please respect mine.
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Dour. They both start with D followed by other letters. That's enough to confuse me...
Looking forward to seeing you too. I hope it is invigorating - usually NAMM is more of a extreme sports event where the object of the game is to try and finish a sentence before you see someone else to say hello to. [:)]
Guy, maybe after trying it out I'll find it to be total crap and agree with you. So far that seems very unlikely, but who knows. It's certainly nothing like what we had ten years ago, though - that much I'm certain of.
Your Konzerthaus Bach Toccata is oustanding, by the way - really great.
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@DG said:
The one big fault in VSL VI is the phasing issue on Velocity xFade. This is the area where I waste most time whilst programming, so if that could be fixed (Herb says not until faster PCs exist) then the next real technological leap has to be much further than anyone has so far suggested.
Just curious, why do we need faster computers to do this? Can they not just "pre-process" the samples? Not every single time, but as a one-off.
Apparently this is what Garritan has done with the violin and cello, so there is no extra strain on the processor trying to perform real-time computations.
Regards,
Ben H
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@DG said:
The one big fault in VSL VI is the phasing issue on Velocity xFade. This is the area where I waste most time whilst programming, so if that could be fixed (Herb says not until faster PCs exist) then the next real technological leap has to be much further than anyone has so far suggested.
Just curious, why do we need faster computers to do this? Can they not just "pre-process" the samples? Not every single time, but as a one-off.
Apparently this is what Garritan has done with the violin and cello, so there is no extra strain on the processor trying to perform real-time computations.
Regards,
Ben H
I wouldn't pretend to know what the technical difficulties of this "morphing" are. However, if it sounded like the Garritan instruments, I wouldn't buy it.
DG
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@DG said:
I wouldn't pretend to know what the technical difficulties of this "morphing" are. However, if it sounded like the Garritan instruments, I wouldn't buy it.
DG
Hey DG,
I wasn't commenting on the sound of the Garritan instruments so much,
I was more questioning whether some offline, pre-processing of the samples would mean that the heavy computations of "morphing" would not have to be done by the user's processor at all.
Ben H
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correct me if i'm wrong, but velocity x-fade would happen in a plane (vel-axis, time-axis) so there would be (almost) endless combinations needed to be preprocessed. and *someone* would need to know where these samples are located and when to use which.
christian
and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds. -
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I share Ben's puzzlement. The average modwheel crossfade covers four samples per key. Two is not uncommon. Is pre-alignment of four samples (per key) that difficult? It might be. I also don't know anything of the technicalities. To my non-technical mind, it sounds like a tedious and lengthy processing task, but not prohibitive.
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This is a bit mysterious. I suspect he's using some variant of additive resynthesis by inverse fft. This method does allow control over phase, if I'm not mistaken. And when you know the precise pitch of each note your resynthesizing, and there's not too much noise content, ifft can sound very good. What I don't get, though, is how this would handle differences/fluctuations in natural vibrato rates between different samples. But maybe it doesn't need to deal with those.... Mind you, I haven't really heard much of the instrument, so I'm not sure how seamless it really is.
J.
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@William said:
Garritan uses artificially processed recordings. So you can align those artificially tweaked notes, but you cannot align real, living, human notes quite as well.
Okay thanks.
I did not mean to be critical of VSL, and I am sure that you are doing everything possible to make great, playable, and innovative instruments.
Kind regards,
Ben H
