@William said:

I haven't heard any demos other than an inconsequential little blurb for tenor sax which sounded o.k.

However there is one complete fallacy in the DVZ (DIVISI) hype. That bad sample performances sound "like a pipe organ" because of too much doubling. That is NOT the reason, and is in fact a relatively minor factor, especially considering you can already do divisi with solo and ensembles of varying size as in VI.

The real reason for the "pipe organ" sound is lack of expression. So a "note-on, note-off, note-on" effect occurs. You can have all the divisi in the world, and that won't change a damned thing. It will always be a challenge to create real expression in a musical performance.

That certainly enters into it, but there is no doubt that playing trombone chords, for instance, with way too many bones on each note, doesn't help.

The other reason things are often described as "organlike" in sound is just plain poor orchestration, i.e. having close voicings where the shouldn't be, etc.

I don't want to knock any product before I hear it, this new library may be amazing. That said, until someone knocks it off the top of the heap, VSL is still the one to beat, divisi or no divisi. JMHO.

TH

I fall into the category of very keen amatuer (little talent). It feels like I have spent decades drooloing over owning a VSL orchestra set ... and late last year I managed to afford the complete cube.

Even if AI is better (by whatever measure), and nobody has even heard a demo yet .... then I am not going to spend another 5 years drooling over a new toolset. Life's too short, and I've all the tools I ever dreamed of to make great music.

I guess very, very, very few people will have the money, determination, need, and obsessiveness to start out all-over again on a new architectuve, new set of tools, new headaches ....


.... and anyway, all this specualtion before anyone has heard anything?

Tom,

You're right on that. It is a factor, I just meant it is not the main reason. Also that's a good point - bad orchestration is a huge factor. In fact I'd say the three main reasons for bad sample performance, assuming a decent sample library, are in order of importance (sorry, I seem to like to make lists) : 1) lack of expressive nuances, 2) bad orchestration, 3) bad mixing and 4) too much doubling. So I'd put it about fourth in importance.

If VSL had alternate solo instruments and a couple two-player desks in the strings, DVZ does not have a chance at unseating them. I think they will probably be good, but I predict the musical quality of VSL will still kick their asses.

I don't believe this total automation stuff. For example, they say everything is right there, instantly. The trills, the tremolos... etc. O.K. But you still have to select them. that's the whole problem - selecting articulations and expressions. So you select them a different way than tracks. That is not necessarily easier. It could be harder depending on if the interface is clumsy.

....however i am scared from the number of computers necessary and in
any case who guarantees the perfect operation...?

@drew buchan said:

...
Even if AI is better (by whatever measure), and nobody has even heard a demo yet .... then I am not going to spend another 5 years drooling over a new toolset. Life's too short, and I've all the tools I ever dreamed of to make great music.

I guess very, very, very few people will have the money, determination, need, and obsessiveness to start out all-over again on a new architectuve, new set of tools, new headaches ....


.... and anyway, all this specualtion before anyone has heard anything?

This sort of crossed my mind, too. Somehow, I don't think anyone would be talking about the "next thing" if there weren't the sense that something else were needed- or that something is currently missing (regardless of manufacturer).

From what I can tell, users of VSL VI love it-- and judging from the insane mp3's, there's no question that VSL VI is more than capable of truly awesome results.

I invested in VSL first, so adding something as costly as AI has little appeal for me at this point. To read a preview report that includes the blurb ".. if you need to ask about the price, you probably cant afford it. ..." implies something at or beyond VSL's MSRP. (For those who haven't seen it-- http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=3264).

Even if money were no object, we're still bound by the limitations of hardware; the same article also cites: "...You need massive computing power and storage to get the best out of these libraries..."

We can chase after all the software in the world, but we're still back to square 'one' with hardware limitations. If this is a non-issue, then AI could clearly emerge as a powerful innovation and addition to the ongoing timeline of VI developmental history.

But I'd rather have users' first-hand reports than developers' pre-release ad claims.

Did someone say "time will tell"?

I persist in the thought that sampled strings can be improved. I hope Ai succeeds.

But, beyond the string sounds they may achieve, my interest in other Ai ventures drops precipitously. "Space" seems to me to be the fifth iteration on IR's. And maybe technically it has nothing to do with IR's. But however they do it, do we really need another way to put a sample in a room? Altiverb, Gigapulse, Space Designer, MIR. I'm just saying it's hard to get excited about another one, and equally hard to imagine that it could be so amazingly better. I'll try to keep an open mind.

"Orchestrator" interests me the least. It carries three issues for me. The first is, we have an extremely high-end product here. By definition, it targets music professionals. But these are the very people who know how to orchestrate, who (I'd hope) jealously guard what note goes to whom. As a rule high end uses don't want these choices taken out of their hands. How can a software program orchestrate a woodwind chord? (EDIT: I can't tell from the site if "Orchestrator" is limited to DVZ strings, or which is what.)

Secondly, "Orchestrator" stresses the ease of dumping to a score. But we've been doing this so long, we have MIDI methods to extract and re-group and print divisi. Yeah, it's annoying, and no, ensembles don't sound like divisi, but these are not Herculean problems to overcome.

Lastly on "Orchestrator," Apple: take heed. If you'd free your other arm from the incessant back-patting, perhaps you could more quickly write us an Environment object that senses the number of notes we're playing and lets us allocate them to different VI's set to different patches. As good as Ai? I doubt it. But a giant step forward for us.

I'd encourage Ai to tone down the "all you have to do is play" angle. As someone mentioned already, we know better. There are a finite number of ways to hit a key, a mod wheel, and a pedal. They are not sufficient to distinguish between staccato, pizz, and jete. Eventually, you'll have to tell Ai *something*, and that's a keyswitch or a CC#, no matter what term they decide to use.

But any active sensing improvements to minimize controllers are welcome.

And one final irony: Ai claims to be a high-end sports car, but that demographic is probably the least likely to futz with the coordination of seven computers, networking, etc. The mid-rangers tolerate the tangle of farms and compatibility, like the gurus here. They do it because their resources are limited. But the Porsche crowd has a low tolerance for it.

I think strings will make or break the deal for me.

@Plowman said:

And one final irony: Ai claims to be a high-end sports car, but that demographic is probably the least likely to futz with the coordination of seven computers, networking, etc. The mid-rangers tolerate the tangle of farms and compatibility, like the gurus here. They do it because their resources are limited. But the Porsche crowd has a low tolerance for it.

I think strings will make or break the deal for me.

Great point, Plowman. "If money were no object..." where dwells the common sense, indeed!?

It's got to be more than simply expensive-- and I dare say it needs to go further in its presumed price echelon than to simply sound good.

I, too, have grown a little weary of hearing how easy something is to use rather than hearing about how easy or difficult it is put to good use. Regardless of cost, it's the call of the consumer to determine the value.

Those posts by plowman and JWL are exactly how I feel. Also, we live in an age of technology glut. And if you are going to learn a powerful tool like VI, then drop it like a hot potato because somebody else has got a new one - I guess you will be spending all your time learning tools, instead of doing music.

I suppose I simply don't believe the basic hype they state on their site - that it's instant orchestration. As was pointed out in those posts, nobody who is a pro uses someboy else's "instant orchestration."

Actually, what I think about these guys basically, is that they are entering a market that is crowded, and so they are desperate to establish themselves as a "niche." And the niche is --- divisi. That may convince some consumers. But who are they marketing to? With those scary statements "if you ask about money you don't have enough?" Yikes!
I ALWAYS ASK ABOUT MONEY!

The basic sound quality is the ONLY thing that matters. You can have all the divisi you want, but...

it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. And as we all know, Herb and the cats at VSL got it. [H]

There is a new kid on the block that is shipping, you can hear demos and it enhances VSL, not attempting to replace.

It's called Broadway Big Band. Check it out. It's really well done & the demos sound pretty cool.

for the record (no pun intended...)

http://www.fablesounds.com/BBB-Menu-frame.htm

It really sounds pretty nice. I love the less "classical" sound of the brass-- wonderfully raucous and fitting for the style. Man, some Sinatra-type orchestrations? Are you kidding? Put some VSL strings on a nice ballad with this and you've got yourself quite track with enough care.

Thanks for the tip, Jack!

Man, the quality of sampling just keeps getting better. I don't know jazz, but that seemed like some sophisticated writing to me. Thanks to both Jack and JWL for the notice.

@Jack Weaver said:

There is a new kid on the block that is shipping, you can hear demos and it enhances VSL, not attempting to replace.

It's called Broadway Big Band. Check it out. It's really well done & the demos sound pretty cool.

Yes Jack. I think you've nailled a pretty important change in the market, that has happened in just the last 48 hours.

"Broadway" is a VI that *leverages* your existing orchestral library investments (whomesover it is produced by).

AI makes your existing orchestral library investment redundant, by definition ... and possibly much of your infrastructure ... and lightens your wallet by tens of thousands of dollars.

Personally, I can't conceive of investing the sort of money AI seems to demand, but I can and am tempted by Broadway.

I still find all this speculation over a product that doesn't yet exist quite amusing. [8-)]

However, if any sample company produces a product that sounds great and takes hardly any more time to program than typing a score in Sibelius, there will be a fair number of people interested, no matter what the cost. When you have a full time assistant, things like multiple PC/Mac set-ups are not a problem.

DG

I've heard that Broadway Big Band has been in the works for quite a long time. It seems that it was conceived about the time when the VSL Performance Tools was all the rage. They have taken that technology to a new level with some degree of automation of articulation selection. Those of us with VSL won't be too, too put off that it's Halion with the Steinberg key. Although us Mac guys might have to turn out heads & cough twice.

I really like the fact that there are two solo trumpets with different sound palletes. I so wish that was the case with the VSL solo violins. I've often wished for a more feminine second solo violin. Maybe a renowned soloist with a unique sound.

Well I guess there you go VSL, the things that might be good in the next major release are 'desks' for string sections, a second solo instrument for the more commonly used instruments and some sort of articulation automation that can be groomed after a first pass. And sure, bundle MIR into it.

Of course, now since everyone is no longer in 'sticker shock' over the concept of a network of computers you could really leverage the new computer processors in a way that would make all of this possible. Maybe we have Ai to thank for that.

Remember last year when VSL said that MIR would take another separate computer and people where spitting up fur balls? I dare say the apprehension regarding this has diminished big time now.

The Broadway Big Band sounds extremely nice. I hope that VSL plans to do a package of extended techniques and stylistic gestures for solo brass and solo woodwinds. I think something like this could prove to be very popular.

Best,
Jay

Not to take any sides here and it's my personal opinion, but after listening to a couple of demos, I'm not impressed, it hardly sounds like real brass... Hello expression? This is probably good for quick mock ups, one day job, but not good refined big band arrangements.

"I still find all this speculation over a product that doesn't yet exist quite amusing." It does exist. We have heard some of it. We know what hardware it uses and a core understanding of Ai's user methodology. We don't know the price.

Beyond that, as I read this discussion, I see what the VSL users are looking for, how they budget, how they see through marketing copy and ask pertinent questions. It's all good, DG.

So if for no other reason that cheering Plowman in his lonely outpost, I'll continue.

"When you have a full time assistant, things like multiple PC/Mac set-ups are not a problem." Admittedly true. The Porsche crowd doesn't want to futz with tune-ups and maintenance either, so they hire mechanics.

So it's ironic when, in the Ai copy, you see a kind of cost consciousness at work: the less expensive PC platform, no need for multiple audio cards, no need to re-license the sounds over multiple computers (just Kontakt). They say that the "other" library would need seven computers to run in its totality, and theirs just needs five.

But Drew has touched on the real cost: Ai is asking the user to dramatically de-value the investments already made for the *substitution* of a new library. Can you imagine how few Ai clients don't own VSL already? Those with Mac farms are really taking it on the chin. And we disavow ourselves not only of much of the hardware, but of a working method that has become second nature.

In that context, the real question emerges for commoners like me: what's the in-point? How much cost and labor do I incur grafting a twig of Ai, most likely violins and celli, into my present system? Because the idea of jettisoning all I know and love about VSL is madness to me. And if Ai offers no incremental approach, that in effect is what they're asking me to do.

The answer lies in Ai's market strategy. Is this a commercial venture or a boutique? And I don't mean "boutique" disparagingly. It's their money, their investment, and they are targeting the need for elite sound and service.

I've never heard it, apart from that dreadful video that sounded worse than a cheap SoundBlaster. Others may have heard it, but the only opinion I trust on string sampels is mine, as I probably know more about string playing than many people on this and other forums. [[:|]]

DG

@Guy said:

Not to take any sides here and it's my personal opinion, but after listening to a couple of demos, I'm not impressed, it hardly sounds like real brass... Hello expression? This is probably good for quick mock ups, one day job, but not good refined big band arrangements.

All demos should be taken with a grain of salt-- and not all VI demos are as refined as ones which appear here on the VSL forum-- that includes your own great tracks, Guy, if I might say so.

However, while the drum programming is pretty good, I'm less impressed with the bass sound and programming. But BBB offers some characteristics that other sample libraries do not. I believe that much is in the hands of the user as far as programming and feel are concerned, and BBB could really shine in the hands of someone who really knows the style and how to use it. It's not VSL and is not meant to address what VSL addresses. I wouldn't want to use VSL Cube with the intent of rendering the same result of a big band mock up. Besides, the drum and bass tracks are hardly the deal breaker here.

With that said, I would also add that there is little else out there which addresses this gaping hole in VIs. There is GPO Jazz and Big Band, but that offers 2.5 GB of samples. It's not a bad collection for $250 USD, but BBB's 100GB for 9 times the price at least implies that there is more to it than even the demos would indicate.

If one listens to a lot of big band and jazz, it becomes clear that there is a certain "lack of" refinement that is typical and, in an odd sort of way, desired. I appreciate certain aspects of imperfection with this style of music because it's not always "perfection" that is the goal when "excellence" is what is most desired.

Clearly, there is a point where the nature of the samples themselves will part ways with the likes of VSL. But then again, there's nothing out there which has quite done on the whole what VSL has. One day in the future we might be able to compare a 500+ GB big band library with the Cube-- but by then the Cube will have also matured across more hard drives than it does now.

And as we take care with the spec, we can at least embrace the notion that VIs in general have come a very long way and are making new strides. If BBB doesn't go far enough, it certainly goes further than other VIs addressing a similar musical intent. I think it's a very exciting landmark in VI history. No doubt, someone else will come along (if not the Fable people themselves) and take this whole concept a step or two further.

As for AI, I agree with the person who cited a certain sense of redundancy for VSL Cube owners. AI so far is strings only-- and that's not spec... and yes, the hardware liabilities are the real horror since AI states that nothing else can be run concurrently with AI (except for the DAW) for the CPU power it requires.

And a side note to Mac users from AI's FAQs:

No, you can’t use the Mac for the control or sample player functions just yet. Ai is initially releasing our DVZ RT core technology software and sampler communications for PC platforms. Internally, however, our software coding is being done with an eye toward eventual integration with Apple’s Mac OS-X™ operating system, and the libraries themselves are operating system neutral; they work either way; you simply can’t use them on the Mac for now...

That takes some of us off the hook right away!

Dunno chaps-- for me, just keeping tabs with VI development is becoming a very exciting spectator sport. What better season could there be for such a thing as NAMM season?

Guy - you're talking about Broadway Big Band? You're not impresssed? Expression?

Huh? Did you listen to the Kurt Weill-ish cue? The solo trumpet?

No jazz/pop brass demos I've heard have come within 50 miles of that.

Now, I haven't tried the library and have no idea what it's like to play, but from what I've heard it brings pop horn samples to the level of the big orchestral libraries.

Journalists like me never get excited about new products, of course - I hope I sound suitably droll.

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