Just to add to the above post, i think Bill and others are on the right track, in their perception of the potential in a sample performance setting, and i look forward to hearing the progress they make, and the work they do, specifically written for this medium.

Exciting times ahead for those who can, and are willing, to 'see' that far.

Alex.

Good post, DG.

Some of the replies here are brilliant and inspiring, no joking.

One other thing that occurs to me is specific types of music in this context. Mention was made of 'simple" music being hard to do in samples - I completely agree. An example is an almost childishly simple violin solo piece I once tried to program. It had been played fairly well by a live violin, but I tried later on to do it with some very good samples and it was terrible. I would never let anyone hear it. A single line with piano accompaniment! On the other hand, some massive orchestrations seem to work in an exciting, even thrilling way that I immediately want others to listen to.

I agree on specifically writing for samples being a deciding factor, though perhaps also there are certain types of orchestral music originally written for live that, because of their particular orientation toward sound and timbre, benefit from sample performance or might even sound better. For example, certain modern pieces that put extreme strains upon live players in their emphasis on unusual timbre. I often wonder what would Ligetti's Atmospheres, Lontano and Apparitions might sound like with samples on the level of VSL. These are pieces which treat the live orchestra almost like a tone generator in a fascinating timbral experiment. The Bacall performance of Varese worked very well and seems to demonstrate something similar though with the added element of highly complex rhythm in the percussion.

The exact opposite of this is the terrible, dull music for "Last of the Mohicans" which was simply a huge mass of undifferentiated sound, "scored" (to use the term very, very loosely) for a live orchestra, a group of studio players who must have been so bored by performing the exact same repetitive theme, doubled over and over throughout the ensemble, that they ended up the recording session in comas and had to be taken out on stretchers.

For the people who think that live orchestras are always better - that piece of shit of a score could be represented by a small, older sample library PERFECTLY. The live players represent nothing more than snob appeal and bragging rights for the producer and composer.

@William said:

I agree on specifically writing for samples being a deciding factor, though perhaps also there are certain types of orchestral music originally written for live that, because of their particular orientation toward sound and timbre, benefit from sample performance or might even sound better. For example, certain modern pieces that put extreme strains upon live players in their emphasis on unusual timbre.

The really sad thing is that todays sample libraries don't have the content to do this.... I'm currently writing a piece consisting of choral washes of soft and warm woodwind multiphonics. Besided being an absolutely uninspiring amount of work getting acquainted with the particularities of each instruments I don't have the means to demonstrate it well to my director. Westgate has some but by far not enough. So I'm currently organizing my own sample recording sessions...

I actually would also love to include the brass multiphonics (with singing), but organizing the WW material is already enough of a hazzle...

@mathis said:

...but organizing the WW material is already enough of a hazzle...

Have the nouvelles techniques in 1994 catalogued, and could give you the following, or better let you know where to order:

Oboe, recorded, notated and fingerings:
multiphonics (circa different 340 samples)
timbre fingerings
eight-tone scale
double harmonic
eight note trills
effect without reed
air tone
key noise,
slap tongue
double harmonic

Bassclarinet, recorded, notated and fingerings:
multiphonics
multiphonic glissando
extreme high register
harmonics
frullato
aeolian sounds
kissing effect
playing on the neck
mouthpiece alone
vox humane
shakes
tremoloes
glissando
key percussion

.

Angelo,

I would be EXTREMELY interested in these!!! Are there any other instruments sampled in a similar fashion?

Please PM me with the info -- I'd very much appreciate it.

J.

-----------------

On my comment above, I should clarify a little. I've been working on a side project which is entirely sample-based, and was sample-based from its conception. It sounds great, IMO. However, on hearing some of it, a friend of mine commented that it would be amazing with a live band... reflecting upon that for a while, I realized that he was absolutely right. I've since been seriously considering putting this band together at some point in the future.

However, I've also done work that is sample-based, and which basically could not be otherwise, without a huge amount of interpretation and approximation. This work is, to me, completely "at home" in a sampled world, and it would basically be wasted effort to even consider replicating it live. So, of course, I absolutely agree on the idea that work can be created specifically for samples, and can be every bit as 'artful' in its execution as any live piece.

cheers, All.

J.

@jbm said:

I would be EXTREMELY interested in these!!! Are there any other instruments sampled in a similar fashion?

Yes, there are mutiphonics available for all wind instrument. Most I own came on compact disks with special books written for the particular instrumentalist and for the contemporary composers.

Of course not all possible multiphonics are recorded. For example on the Oboe alone are over thousand possibilities to blow several notes at once, of which I have only 390 different ones, but all nicely catalogued and notatated. An oboist would call those the most important multiphonics.

If anybody else is EXTREMLY interested, I can post the most important info right here, or in a new thread. Infos like book titel, authors, ISBN numbers, websites of instrumentalist where you can order nouvelle techniques sounds etc.. just let me know. Otherwise I send you jbm a PM.

Also, I don’t own this samples 100%, but bought them for using under licence, and the ones I recorded myself, the instrumentalists are the co-owners. So it would be no good idea just to make a copy of those huge library for any of you.

.

Others multiphonics are available online. For example here a Heckel-System Bassoon multiphonic site:

Heckel-System Bassoon Multiphonic Fingerings_
http://idrs.colorado.edu/bsnfing/fingmult.htm

Indexes > Bb1-B1 > Heckel Multiphonic fingerings Bb1- B1:
http://www.idrs.org/Pub/BsnMulti/BB1_B1MU.html

Home.
http://idrs.colorado.edu/bsnfing/finghome.htm

.

@Angelo Clematide said:

If anybody else is EXTREMLY interested, I can post the most important info right here, or in a new thread. Infos like book titel, authors, ISBN numbers, websites of instrumentalist where you can order nouvelle techniques sounds etc.. just let me know.

PLEASE do so! Maybe make a new thread.
Yes, the Heckel bassoon site I already found. Thanks for the confirmation that I can get my bassoon material from there.

Bests,
- Mathis

"The really sad thing is that todays sample libraries don't have the content to do this..." - mathis

Actually that's not true, as your own work proved with the time-stretched vibraphone.

Also, on those pieces I mentioned, Ligetti used mainly normally played instruments, in unique combinations. Though I agree more samples of anything are always a good thing.


Though again, oddly enough, when you start talking about using these specialized articulations - that is when I would want live, not sampled instruments. To totally contradict everything I just said. Whoops. I always do that...

@mathis said:

PLEASE do so! Maybe make a new thread.

Okay, give me a few days for the whole compiling the info, so around middle next week, first have to mix one rock song tomorrow for a band from Long Island, they wait since a loooong time for that one on this Island...

.


Btw, this site has some really good quality, go to > Sounds with tag "multiphonics" I just don't know how to download them.

http://freesound.iua.upf.edu/tagsViewSingle.php?id=2920

.

@mathis said:

PLEASE do so! Maybe make a new thread.

Okay, give me a few days for the whole compiling the info, so around middle next week, first have to mix one rock song tomorrow for a band from Long Island, they wait since a loooong time for that one on this Island...


Brilliant, Angelo. I'm very much looking forward to it.

cheers,

J.

@William said:

"The really sad thing is that todays sample libraries don't have the content to do this..." - mathis

Actually that's not true, as your own work proved with the time-stretched vibraphone.

No,sorry, but it's the other way round, the vibraphone is recorded by myself. No commercial samples involved here. In fact this kind of piece is not possible with sample libraries, because my electronic treatment works like a magnifying glass to the noises and imperfections of the playing, something that usually is edited out in a commercial library.
I would never do this kind of piece with a sample library because the results would be terribly boring. The major and essential part of the creative process is the conceptualization and improvisation, the recording the material.

For the ones not knowing what piece we are talking about:
http://www.mathis-nitschke.com/mp3/TT_Vibraphon_part1.mp3">http://www.mathis-nitschke.com/mp3/TT_Vibraphon_part1.mp3
http://www.mathis-nitschke.com/mp3/TT_Vibraphon_part3.mp3
(especially part 3)