Thanks a lot James, that was a good link and very interesting.

Miklos.

I have been reading this technical discussion with interest but actually understand very little of it other than loading up with lots of RAM will not solve all problems. Could someone please tell me what an optimal amount of RAM is for today's dual processor Intel Macs. Thanks loads.

Hi Jerry, at the moment 5 - 6 gigs is sufficient in a Mac machine if it's a tower I don't think you can get that much into an imac or mac mini or laptop. The softwrae doesn't use more than that so buying more is a waste of time at the moment - with the exception that there are some work arounds people have done where you can launch two lots of VI on the same machine - there are threads somewhere here on the forum which I haven't read haven't got to it yet - perhaps someone can post a link if they know off the top of their head... However once the apps/os and everything is 64bit capable the software will be able to use more than the current limit of approx 3 Gigs of RAM and will be able to access as much as the machine can physically hold - ie. 128gigs will not be a problem, neither will 10,000 Gb ram (not physically possible right now of course!).

For your purposes you need 1Gig for Logic, 3 Gigs for VI to have plenty of room to load samples (although I think it hits the ceiling at around 2.7 Gigs, people have had mixed results I think) and 1Gig for OSX Mac system - that is to leave plenty of room to move you don't want your machine to start doing a lot of hard drive swapping while running Logic. So 5 - 6 Gigs is a good amount, plus you can keep ichat, mail and safari open if you want to as well.

Miklos.

This Miklos guy sure knows his gigs! But the bottom line is you need gigs if want gigs... [:D]

Yes, that is true sadly for me practically penniless and destitute, but for the love of music I'll be in the street with a desk on wheels a car battery and head phones doing mixes on my G5 and a blanket until they finally take me away!!! [:D]

Wish List:

8cpu Mac Pro
128Gigs RAM
64bit OS and software
8 hard drives
30 inch screen x 2
All set up in a Bus/Home/Studio
Recording booths,
electric guitars
lots of good microphones and hardware
surround sound monitoring system
automated desk
.....
Plus a million dollars for spending fun...
.....
World Peace and Liberty for all...

Food, Clean water and housing and health for all humanity
Technology to replace eviornmental destructive ones...
Worldwide cultural renaissance...
Colonisation of Mars in 20 years...
Reverse the greenhouse effect...
Free energy devices for homes everywhere
Honest polititians...

I guess what I'm saying is, hopes for my macpro are slim....
worse... creating computers is bad for the environment and utilises cheap labor in developing nations [:(]

[*-)]

James, I edit and publish a magazine and therefore get lots of press releases. I'm telling you that right now there isn't any noise about 64-bit software... as I keep saying over and over. Companies tend to publicize what they're about to come out with as soon as they can reasonably do so, for obvious reasons. Therefore I'm drawing conclusions that could well be off-base, but unfortunately are probably right.

Sonar has a 64-bit version. Yes. I already said that. But you'll notice that it doesn't have a streaming sampler with 64-bit memory access yet. Steinberg has said that they only need to "flip a couple of bits" to get 64-bit memory access for HALion, but that hasn't happened yet. That accounts for two companies. Has anyone else breathed a word about it?

The question is rhetorical, of course.

Next, Cakewalk reports getting a 10-15% processing improvement with their 64-bit version over the 32 on the same hardware. That doesn't automatically make it so across the board with every program - it's quite possible, from what I've been told, that some processes could actually slow down. We'll have to wait and see.

Also, the 64-bit OS X will be backwards-compatible with 32-birt software (obviously, or every single program would have to be rewritten yet again). However, I've never heard anyone say that 64-bit DAWs will be backwards-compatible with 32-bit plug-ins. Chances are that every one of our instrument and processing plug-ins will have to be updated to run at 64 bits, i.e. I haven't heard anything that leads me to believe we'll be able to mix the two.

The reality in this blind-leading-blind discussion is that none of us who doesn't work on a program knows how difficult it is to make it 64-bit compatible. My informed guess is that it's a huge deal for most of them. Therefore I don't assume that this is going to happen overnight, just because the operating systems will be ready.

Nick, I agree with you 100%!

J.

That makes two of us, Jerome. [:)]

@Another User said:

Ram prices will fall once people start buying more. People will start buying more when they can use it...

Miklos, I'm not an economist, but to it seems like that would create a *demand.* For the prices to fall there has to be an abundant *supply* - economy of scale notwithstanding.

cm pointed out that the chip manufacturers can't always stay in step with the type of RAM computer manufacturers are using all the time. Hopefully they'll catch up with the stuff Mac Pros are using by the time 64-bit memory access becomes available to us, and the prices will drop.

On a related note, PC3200 memory used by G5s is now about $100/GB (up from $75 not very long ago). While the general computer public doesn't need extended RAM access, it turns out that we actually can use it today.

In case you missed the thread:

http://community.vsl.co.at/viewtopic.php?t=9801

$800 to get about 7GB of RAM access is feasible. But the error-correcting RAM used by Mac Pros is $250/GB. OUCH!

TASCAM is working on a 64-bit version of GigaStudio, but we don't have a release date yet. Part of the problem is that the two mass-market 64-bit OS releases, Vista and Panther, aren't completed yet. So manufacturers probably don't want to release their 64-bit code before testing them on these operating systems. Once these two products ship (probably both in January) and the NAMM show begins (coincidentally also in January), I'd expect some more announcements about 64-bit apps and plug-ins.

i'm wondering how restrictive (= expensive & complicated) MS will handle the certification for 64-bit drivers and applications, nothing without a certificate will run in VISTA-64. so let's patiently wait if we hear something about a 64bit sequencer until january ...
christian

cm, are you talking about the dialog that comes up when you install something, complaining that the program you're about to install could be risky?

I like that analogy Guy! [:D]

Nick--

for what I've heard, Vista in 64-bit mode will not work with drivers like XP used to. In XP, you could dismiss the alert telling you the drivers were not certified, and install them anyway.

Vista 64-bit won't allow you to do so.

Jerome

Either that completely stinks or it's a fantastic feature that ensures every single piece of software will be 100% reliable and never ever break down.

[:)]

jerome mentioned it already - it's not only the dialog coming up (as we know it from various driver installations actually from big companies) but a kind of *execution prevention* for not certified software accessing the kernel - http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/system/platform/64bit/kmsigning.mspx
not sure now, but i suspect to have read something similar for leopard ...
basically such a behaviour makes sense and could be introduced also for all 64bit capable procesors even using 32bit software
christian

I haven't heard anyone other than Nemesys/TASCAM talk about accessing the kernel. Is it actually necessary to get as low-level as that to write good music/audio software?

Does the Vienna Instruments player do that?

My understanding about Macs is that you can't access the hardware directly. Is that no longer true?

nick, whereas giga's streaming engine is running in kernel mode the vienna instruments are using the user space (of memory) ... but i think there is no audio software at all not _accessing_ the kernel (of an operating system).
and no modern operating system is accessing hardware directly, they are all using hardware abstraction layers, otherwise it would be almost impossible to port something to another processor platform.
christian

Thanks cm.

@Nick Batzdorf said:

James, I edit and publish a magazine and therefore get lots of press releases. I'm telling you that right now there isn't any noise about 64-bit software... as I keep saying over and over. Companies tend to publicize what they're about to come out with as soon as they can reasonably do so, for obvious reasons. Therefore I'm drawing conclusions that could well be off-base, but unfortunately are probably right.

Also, the 64-bit OS X will be backwards-compatible with 32-birt software (obviously, or every single program would have to be rewritten yet again). However, I've never heard anyone say that 64-bit DAWs will be backwards-compatible with 32-bit plug-ins. Chances are that every one of our instrument and processing plug-ins will have to be updated to run at 64 bits, i.e. I haven't heard anything that leads me to believe we'll be able to mix the two.

Heh, I wouldn't think to challenge your ear on the industry. I was just pointing out some facts about a particular piece of software that I happen to know a bit about. Beyond that, I wouldn't presume to know anything.

Just fyi, Sonar is using some sort of 32-bit thunking layer (they call it BitBridge) to allow 32-bit plugins to work in their 64-bit environment. This is certainly going to be a requirement for 64-bit computing to take off, as many musicians have obviously invested an enormous amount of money in 32-bit plug-ins, and it's likely that, for whatever reason, many of those will never be converted. If Cakewalk could figure out how to do this, I don't see any reason other vendors can't do the same.

I do agree with your assertion that widespread adoption is likely still a ways off for the bulk of the industry. And, notwithstanding those who will make the jump immediately when it's available, there are many with a fairly significant investment in 32-bit hardware that will probably wait for a more normal obsolescences cycle before buying new systems, and that means a few years past the initial hardware/software offerings even.

Naturally, it's all pure speculation. But, that's half the fun, no?

@James Boer said:

Just fyi, Sonar is using some sort of 32-bit thunking layer (they call it BitBridge) to allow 32-bit plugins to work in their 64-bit environment. This is certainly going to be a requirement for 64-bit computing to take off, as many musicians have obviously invested an enormous amount of money in 32-bit plug-ins, and it's likely that, for whatever reason, many of those will never be converted. If Cakewalk could figure out how to do this, I don't see any reason other vendors can't do the same.

However, using this system could actually make for a worse sound that sticking with a 32bit system!!!! I would also be interested to know whether or not introducing a 32bit app into the melting pot means that the RAM advantages of a 64bit OS are no longer available. I don't know, I'm just asking.

DG