Loading in the DAW is much more convenient when it comes to mixdowns, using plugs etc. I can also have almost unlimited VST outputs, whereas using the Host I'm limited to what my hardware has.

Regarding performance issues in the host, as I don't have any MIDI input or audio outputs enabled there is no chance of a problem

DG

Right, of course.

Julian sounds like cpu will fix that eh?

Nick: why would OSX be 64bit in Leopard, with 64bit Apple apps coming soo after? Why would they bother if it wasn't the direction of the future.The fact is that 64bit is necessary for the coming years because of hard drive/storage and memory access. It's like people used to say why would you record in 24bit when you're mastering to 16bit! What a rediculous argument, yet people made it earnestly everywhere I went, but I always said you can't compare 24bit to 16bit even on a master.

Miklos

@mpower88 said:

Julian sounds like cpu will fix that eh?

I think that will help. When, for example, you are doing a Retrospect back-up and large files are being archived the data transfer rates are as much as a hundred times quicker than when the system, library and cache folders are being backed up when tens of thousands of files are being copied.

So the consideration with VI's is not only the RAM amount but the number of files (headers) and currently the sheer number of files requred - which is a direct by-product of the quality/flexibility of the library - appears to be the limting factor in load times.

So although many users (me included) want to load more VI instances and larger matrixes, once we head south of 10 GB's of RAM I suspect the limitatons will start to come from the drive/cpu access and load speed. I'm not an expert but it is possible CPU increases will help, alonge with I suspect further, VSL software evolution.

Julian

No question, Miklos, we're headed to a 64-bit world. Absolutely, 100%.

My only question is about the timing. It seems to me that we'd be hearing a lot more noise about it if it were just around the corner. So far I haven't seen a single press release saying "XXX announces 64-bit version of YYY."

You could argue that they're just waiting until it's ready, but most companies don't do that. They all sent out press releases saying they were doing universal binary versions, for example, even though they didn't appear for several months (and some are still appearing).

Remember, 10.5 will run 32-bit programs too.

And frankly, the old "run stand-alone version outside your DAW and access all the RAM you can eat" trick has me less excited about 64-bit computing.

Also, I'm not entirely sure the 24- vs. 16-bit analogy is all that à propos. 64-bit processing is unlikely to result in better sound, in fact it's not even a given that it's going to give us any more plug-in horsepower in all cases. What it will do is give us unlimited memory access.

Nick: it seems widely accepted and publicised that Vista is 64bit. AMD have their 64 bit chips, Core2 duo "64bit", which has been marketed as such, and there seems to be a considerable difference in speed over the last gen of intels, how much that is because they are 64 bit or for other reasons I don't know - and of course OSX has been 64 bit for a long time which is now going to be 64bit at the GUI level too. All this is widely known and publicised.

Miklos.

My hunch is that, from a marketing point of view, Apple would very much like to be able to announce 64bit - - versions of its Pro software applications (including Logic Pro) that can make use of as many processors as a machine has - - along with OS 10.5 and 8 processor core hardware. What better way to advertise the advantages of OS 10.5 - - and to give Apple a chance to sell pricey (e.g. perhaps "only" $399.50 for updating to "Logic Pro 64 Xtreme") updates? Whether or not such a time table is practically achievable is another question, but perhaps we will have some hints at MacWorld Expo in January. In the meantime, we have to hope that the price of ECC FB RAM starts to decline significantly.

Miklos, I think you're missing my point.

A 64-bit computer system has the processor, OS, *and programs* running at 64 bits. Without all three you still have a 32-bit system, and the last to fall will be the software. It will happen, but the question is when.

I think it's going to take a while.

Also note that right now Mac OS X is only 64-bit capable for programs that don't use its graphic interface - i.e. UNIX command line programs. As a practical matter for you ane me, that rule out every program on the planet.

Nick: I think I said, that Leopard will be fully 64 bit thoughh and that is not far away.

Ram prices will fall once people start buying more. People will start buying more when they can use it...

64bit apps will become the new marketing fad, because the cup manufacturers are making the chips, now it's going to be, this app is 64 bit this one is not. Properly written apps will surely demonstrate the difference even to modest users I think, well, that part is just a speculative opinion I admit.

Miklos.

@Nick Batzdorf said:

Cakewalk and Steinberg were hawking 64 a couple of years ago (but they aren't really doing that now), and some audio hardware companies have 64-bit drivers, but in general I haven't heard software companies tout this as much as you'd expect if it's really close on the horizon.

64-bit versions have been available to all Sonar customers for two versions now, so... I'm not certain how that qualifies as not "hawking 64". I think for many PC users (at least this one) it's just taken as a given that it's available now (you don't see many headlines about features that have shipped a year ago). At least for me, it's just about the cost of upgrading to a new platform that's holding me back, but I'm saving my pennies...

There's a few links here about the state of 64-bit computing that are interesting, as well as the obligatory promotional stuff from Cakewalk and MS.
http://www.cakewalk.com/x64/

Thanks a lot James, that was a good link and very interesting.

Miklos.

I have been reading this technical discussion with interest but actually understand very little of it other than loading up with lots of RAM will not solve all problems. Could someone please tell me what an optimal amount of RAM is for today's dual processor Intel Macs. Thanks loads.

Hi Jerry, at the moment 5 - 6 gigs is sufficient in a Mac machine if it's a tower I don't think you can get that much into an imac or mac mini or laptop. The softwrae doesn't use more than that so buying more is a waste of time at the moment - with the exception that there are some work arounds people have done where you can launch two lots of VI on the same machine - there are threads somewhere here on the forum which I haven't read haven't got to it yet - perhaps someone can post a link if they know off the top of their head... However once the apps/os and everything is 64bit capable the software will be able to use more than the current limit of approx 3 Gigs of RAM and will be able to access as much as the machine can physically hold - ie. 128gigs will not be a problem, neither will 10,000 Gb ram (not physically possible right now of course!).

For your purposes you need 1Gig for Logic, 3 Gigs for VI to have plenty of room to load samples (although I think it hits the ceiling at around 2.7 Gigs, people have had mixed results I think) and 1Gig for OSX Mac system - that is to leave plenty of room to move you don't want your machine to start doing a lot of hard drive swapping while running Logic. So 5 - 6 Gigs is a good amount, plus you can keep ichat, mail and safari open if you want to as well.

Miklos.

This Miklos guy sure knows his gigs! But the bottom line is you need gigs if want gigs... [:D]

Yes, that is true sadly for me practically penniless and destitute, but for the love of music I'll be in the street with a desk on wheels a car battery and head phones doing mixes on my G5 and a blanket until they finally take me away!!! [:D]

Wish List:

8cpu Mac Pro
128Gigs RAM
64bit OS and software
8 hard drives
30 inch screen x 2
All set up in a Bus/Home/Studio
Recording booths,
electric guitars
lots of good microphones and hardware
surround sound monitoring system
automated desk
.....
Plus a million dollars for spending fun...
.....
World Peace and Liberty for all...

Food, Clean water and housing and health for all humanity
Technology to replace eviornmental destructive ones...
Worldwide cultural renaissance...
Colonisation of Mars in 20 years...
Reverse the greenhouse effect...
Free energy devices for homes everywhere
Honest polititians...

I guess what I'm saying is, hopes for my macpro are slim....
worse... creating computers is bad for the environment and utilises cheap labor in developing nations [:(]

[*-)]

James, I edit and publish a magazine and therefore get lots of press releases. I'm telling you that right now there isn't any noise about 64-bit software... as I keep saying over and over. Companies tend to publicize what they're about to come out with as soon as they can reasonably do so, for obvious reasons. Therefore I'm drawing conclusions that could well be off-base, but unfortunately are probably right.

Sonar has a 64-bit version. Yes. I already said that. But you'll notice that it doesn't have a streaming sampler with 64-bit memory access yet. Steinberg has said that they only need to "flip a couple of bits" to get 64-bit memory access for HALion, but that hasn't happened yet. That accounts for two companies. Has anyone else breathed a word about it?

The question is rhetorical, of course.

Next, Cakewalk reports getting a 10-15% processing improvement with their 64-bit version over the 32 on the same hardware. That doesn't automatically make it so across the board with every program - it's quite possible, from what I've been told, that some processes could actually slow down. We'll have to wait and see.

Also, the 64-bit OS X will be backwards-compatible with 32-birt software (obviously, or every single program would have to be rewritten yet again). However, I've never heard anyone say that 64-bit DAWs will be backwards-compatible with 32-bit plug-ins. Chances are that every one of our instrument and processing plug-ins will have to be updated to run at 64 bits, i.e. I haven't heard anything that leads me to believe we'll be able to mix the two.

The reality in this blind-leading-blind discussion is that none of us who doesn't work on a program knows how difficult it is to make it 64-bit compatible. My informed guess is that it's a huge deal for most of them. Therefore I don't assume that this is going to happen overnight, just because the operating systems will be ready.

Nick, I agree with you 100%!

J.

That makes two of us, Jerome. [:)]

@Another User said:

Ram prices will fall once people start buying more. People will start buying more when they can use it...

Miklos, I'm not an economist, but to it seems like that would create a *demand.* For the prices to fall there has to be an abundant *supply* - economy of scale notwithstanding.

cm pointed out that the chip manufacturers can't always stay in step with the type of RAM computer manufacturers are using all the time. Hopefully they'll catch up with the stuff Mac Pros are using by the time 64-bit memory access becomes available to us, and the prices will drop.

On a related note, PC3200 memory used by G5s is now about $100/GB (up from $75 not very long ago). While the general computer public doesn't need extended RAM access, it turns out that we actually can use it today.

In case you missed the thread:

http://community.vsl.co.at/viewtopic.php?t=9801

$800 to get about 7GB of RAM access is feasible. But the error-correcting RAM used by Mac Pros is $250/GB. OUCH!

TASCAM is working on a 64-bit version of GigaStudio, but we don't have a release date yet. Part of the problem is that the two mass-market 64-bit OS releases, Vista and Panther, aren't completed yet. So manufacturers probably don't want to release their 64-bit code before testing them on these operating systems. Once these two products ship (probably both in January) and the NAMM show begins (coincidentally also in January), I'd expect some more announcements about 64-bit apps and plug-ins.