Vienna Symphonic Library Forum
Forum Statistics

201,249 users have contributed to 43,236 threads and 259,222 posts.

In the past 24 hours, we have 2 new thread(s), 9 new post(s) and 63 new user(s).

  • We have three APCs for the whole setup. One of them can hold up to 2200 W, we use it for the Quad and the two Powermacs. Another one has up to 900 W, we use it for the mac Minis.

    The third APC is used for all the gear (audio interfaces, firewire drives, etc).

    Jerome

  • Jerome

    I'm using Cubase for the DAW and plasq rax for the mac mini's.

  • [edit - I lost some of this post and am fixing it before reading Jerome's response]

    Have they improved? Last time I checked the UPS couldn't handle a single Mac with two hard drives.

    That aside - and I'm not trying to sneer at Jerome's set-up again, because I'm willing to be convinced othewise - my argument has always been that if I'm working at the machine, I save subconciously every single time I do something I don't want to lose out of habit, so the APC shouldn't be necessary; and if I'm away from the machine, I've already saved anything I want.

    But I do have my computers on two (or three) reasonably good power strips in series, and my audio equipoment is plugged into a fused isolation transformer box.

  • When a big power outage happens (and in California it happens fairly often I'd say), I don't think it's good for the gear to be shutting down like this. I think it's a pretty good idea to save your work and shut down manually all your equipment in the ± 15 minutes you have before your APCs run out.

    But of course, saving is done (and should always be done) on a fairly recurrent basis.

    Jerome

  • Yeah, it's better to shut everything down smoothly. But in reality we've all had to shut down machines badly lots of times, and I've never heard of a computer getting damaged that way. I suppose a split-second power outage - i.e. the power shuts off and back on before the power supplies' capacitors have had a chance to discharge - could cause hard disks to lurch. But that seems like a long shot.

    And I think power outages are really pretty rare here - like once every couple of years. The big crisis was 2001, five years ago. But you can also trigger circuit breakers in your house if you have too many gadgets on, in fact I think that's a more serious concern. I had a separate circuit run into my room several years ago, mostly for that reason. (The other reason was to isolate it from bad stuff like dimmers and the refrigerator, but I'm not sure that really works.)

    But I could also be wrong about power outages here:

    http://www.latimes.com/business/local/power/la-me-dwp8nov08,1,5300638.story?coll=la-headlines-business-power

    Anyway, sorry about going OT.

  • On the three studios I've worked in the pass 9 months, I had a total of 5 power outages [:D]

    Two of them were due to rain storms in january, which, for some reason, create power outages in Pacific Palisades.

    Three of them were because, for some reason, this other studio's power generator went down. The guy had to call the electricity company to figure out where the problem came from.

    Anyway- the thing is, it happens. And you usually don't expect it.

    As such, some people think about saving their work all the time. But sometime, you just forget. And boom! power failure.

    I always say you can never be too cautious.

    Realistically, making backups of your stuff is rarely useful. That doesn't prevent me from backing up like crazy.

    About a year ago, my project drive stopped mounting. In more than ten years of using computers, this had never happened to me. I didn't have a backup.

    Since that day, my project drive is a RAID 1, with an automatic daily backup on an external drive.

    Better safe than sorry.

    Jerome

  • UPSes are a bit like insurance against damage to your data due to dirty power; like all insurance, their cost needs to be weighed against the cost of the unexpected loss or corruption of data happening at the worst time.

    In theory, modern operating systems are robust when power is yanked unexpectedly (DOS and non-NT-based Windows don't count as modern, by the way -- they barely count as operating systems).

    However, in practice, when a computer attempts to recover from being unexpectedly shutdown, it might restore consistency to the file system by deleting anything that seems out of place. That can include all your recent work, if it was only partially saved, or if it was in the process of being updated when the power went. This can actually be hazardous to data that wasn't being directly updated, since consistency can mean: "that directory is in an unknown state, because a file in it was being renamed, so we need to remove the whole thing in order to restore its consistency".

    Many file systems have what's called journalling, a technology borrowed from high-availability database systems, which works to recover data that was in transit when the power went. But you might find that its default configuration only protects the structure of the file system, and not its contents, since it can impose a performance penalty.

    Note that things like RAID 1 won't help you here, because they're primarily protection against individual hard disks failing, not power to all of them at once.

    How does a UPS help? Well, even if it only provides a few minutes of power to the computers which hold your work, that's enough for them to be shut down in an orderly fashion. Even fairly cheap UPSes come with a cable that can be plugged into the computers they're protecting, and this lets them be notified that power has failed. The computer can then perform shutdown actions (as well as send an alert, perhaps) once available battery power drops to a critical level.

    The other useful function a UPS provides is to hide brown-outs, where the mains power doesn't fail, but dips momentarily to a level that's too low to let the equipment work right. In my experience, these are more common than complete power failures, and can leave computers in a highly weird, and generally unusable, state if they're not smoothed out by a UPS.

    Of course, many computers have UPSes built into them these days anyway; they're called 'laptop batteries', and can lend a false sense of security to those who're used to the consequences of having the protection they offer, protection that isn't available by default in servers and workstations.

  • Well I suppose we are slightly OT, but I use a UPS here in France where the electricity in my village is notoriously bad.

    It's an APC model and quite happily powers all my gear (MacPro, two Mac Minis + external HDs, Apple 23" monitor, Adams monitors, MCU, MC Extender and Big Knob plus other little bits and bobs)

    I wouldn't be without it.

  • Thanks for the post, fcw. Very interesting.

    I mentioned the RAID 1 as "one" part of the puzzle. Having a RAID 1 doesn't prevent from having a "real" backup, since if, by mistake, you delete your files, they're deleted on both drives. So, the backup is there to make sure that even if you *do* make a mistake, there will be a backup from "not too long ago" somewhere.

    As you said, RAID 1 is cool only in terms of disk reliability, since the possibilities of two disks failing at the same moment is extremely low. The good thing is that if one disk fails, not only will the current data still be there, but the system is also up and running, so you don't even have to worry about it! That's what I call peace of mind.

    Timkiel, what part of France are you from?

    Jerome

  • Tinkiel, which model do you have that supports all those machines?

    Last time I looked they weren't up to protecting a single 9600 with two drives in it. I guess that's been a while, though... [:)]

    Jerome...five outages in nine months?! That's really weird. I've never lived in the Palisades, but I've lived in the area since 1962 - in West LA, Santa Monica, Mar Vista, Culver City, and Sherman Oaks - and it's never been anywhere near that frequent.

  • last edited
    last edited
    fcw, i'm very thankful for your post - this are very valid points. unfortunately actually in europe we encounter an increasing frequency of brownouts, even larger international outages because energy companies are economizing like blazes and this is nothing computers like ...
    and you can bet you have just not saved your work in the moment it happens.

    we have lately integrated 2 2,5 kVA UPS (corresponding to this model ) and it provides power for more than 20 minutes for a server with a raid, 2 workstations with monitors and several audio- and switching devices.

    if an UPS doesn't *pull* a single workstation any more you might want to consider changing the batteries - they don't survive longer than 3 years usually ....
    christian

    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
  • Jerome - near Carcasonne in the southwest.

    Nick - I have an APC Smart UPS 1000 1U Rack. Doesn't last very long when the power goes off (about 5 minutes). But it does the job and wasn't overly expensive plus I only had 1U of rack space left - otherwise I might have considered the 1500 or 2200 versions

    Cheers

    Tim

  • last edited
    last edited

    @Another User said:

    if an UPS doesn't *pull* a single workstation any more you might want to consider changing the batteries - they don't survive longer than 3 years usually ....


    We've been using the same little 1,500 VA APC unit for eight years now; in that time, we have replaced the battery once. The unit tests itself every few days by deliberately switching to the battery while the mains is up to see if it can take the load, and reports when the battery is becoming too weak to be dependable.

    By the way, in case anyone reading this doesn't know, never put laser printers on a UPS; they can have stupendous surges of current consumption that can exceed the output supply limits, which can result in everything on the UPS losing power even when the mains is available.

  • Thanks Tinkiel.

    I actually have my tail between my legs. Yesterday evening we came home, and the first thing that happened when we walked in the door was that the power flickered. [:)]

    My main computer was asleep and all the others were off, so the computer didn't even need restarting. But I guess that did make the point.

  • last edited
    last edited

    @Another User said:

    You know, I never put monitors on a UPS ...
    but it helps if dialog windows need to be answered before the machine is shuting down [;)] and LCDs don't eat too much ....
    christian

    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
  • last edited
    last edited

    @fcw said:

    You know, I never put monitors on a UPS ...
    but it helps if dialog windows need to be answered before the machine is shuting down [;)]

    That tends not to be an issue with Linux and Unix servers; ours rarely even have keyboards attached to them, never mind screens.

    And while I won't have Windows on any server that we depend on, I do still manage Windows servers for clients remotely via Remote Desktop, which works fine from my laptop, even though it's running Linux too. [:)]

  • hehe - the server is not the problem, you know, even windows servers can shutdown unattended [;)]
    i was talking about audio workstations (mostly in recording mode) - if you cannot answer dialogs here you may loose a complete session ...
    christian

    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
  • last edited
    last edited

    @Another User said:

    i was talking about audio workstations (mostly in recording mode) - if you cannot answer dialogs here you may loose a complete session ...
    christian


    Fair enough; I have my DAW set up to save backups every few minutes, and that seems to work okay without being too annoying.

    The other (non-DAW) workstations here run pretty much entirely off the network, so hitting them with an axe wouldn't lose much work. Not that that happens too much.

  • Hi Guys,

    If I may, I'd like to jump away from the power issues for a minute…

    I'm just starting on this Mini-Farm journey, and have one Intel Mini 1.83 Core Duo hooked up on the network. It's got VI player installed, and I'm using Bidule to host. Currently without an audio or MIDI solution for getting it talking to Logic on my G5, but that's coming soon (with suggestions from you guys, hopefully). At the minute, I haven't installed any instruments to the mini, and am accessing them over the network (they're on an external drive, connected to the G5). This leads me to my main question:

    Does anyone use a Network Hard Disk for VSL?
    I'm wondering if it's a good idea to hook up a 2TB LaCie to my Gigabit switch, and access it from all the (eventual) machines.

    What would be the main issues here?

    Or am I still better off swapping out the internal 5400RPM Mini drive with a 7200?
    I want to stay clear of FireWire, as I may be using the ProFire ADAT.

    I feel like such a newbie again. it sucks.

    Peter

  • Hi Peter:

    my advice is for you to switch the internal drive to a 7200RPM. It's really not hard (and at the same time you could upgrade your mini to 2GB... [:)]).

    I don't think using a network hard drive storage is a good idea within this setup. Definitely not as fast as having the samples on your main drive.

    Plus, the less traffic on the network the better, especially if you are using MIDIOverLan.

    jerome