Hi everybody

I'm new to the forums, and also new to all the hardware and software you discuss - please bear with my stupidity.

Jerome, how would you get the sound of a guitar or a microphone into the soundcard you use, the RME - HDSP MADI?
My company wants to set up a computer (Mac Pro) and one or more Mac Minis to host VI, but we want to be able to record guitar, bass and vocals as well (nothing more than stereo input needed), on the same computer. Would you be able to connect a mixer to the MADI card, to lead the record data into the computer, or is the MADI mainly for master/slave internal composing?
How do you lead the sound out of the computer?
Does anyone here mix their music in 5.1? What speaker setup and sound card/external mixer do you use to get the sound out in the mixing room?
Is GigaStudio needed for a master/slave setup, or can you run such a setup directly through Logic? Would GigaStudio increase the performance in any way? (if we go for ProTools I guess we have to go with GigaSampler anyway because then we'd have to buy the GS version of VI as PT doesn't support the EXS format)

Thanks in advance.

EDIT: I saw now that you use Logic, so I guess that you don't need GS for the master/slave setup.

/simon

Hi Simon,

Maya asked me lately to give you some information about a possible hardware setup for your company.

I´ve just read in the forum that you are thinking about getting one of the RME MADI Cards. This card is mainly used if you have a big digital console like the Sony Oxford/DMX-R100 or one of the Soundtracks consoles (DPC II, DS 3, DS 00) featuring a MADI input. Or if you are using it together with the correlating RME interfaces e.g. the ADI648.

The main reason why someone would buy the MADI card is that you have 64 inputs and 64 outputs from your computer simultaneously. This is needed when you record many sources at the same time live, e.g. a whole band or an orchestra.
Because the RME ADI 648 is a ADAT to MADI converter and I have a Sony DMX R-100 it was the right decision for me, as I used the 8 ADAT inputs on the ADI 648 to sum-up all outputs from my Giga machines and the bus and direct outs of the sony, which are also ADAT in my case.

The next problem is that the MAC Pro don´t have any PCI or PCI-X slots but only PCI-express now, so at the moment you can´t put the RME cards into this machine. RME said that they will release a HDSP MADI card with PCI-express socket in summer 2006. But till now nothing was announced.

The only PCI-express audio cards on the market right now are the Apogee Symphony and the Motu PCI-424. They both have their strength.

So the best way would be, if you send some short answers to the questions below, so that I can figure out the best system for your needs.

1) how many Macmini do you think you will need as slaves?
2) how many physical outputs do you think you need per Macmini (I would suggest 8 -> one ADAT pipe)
3) do you have or think about buying a Mixingdesk also? digital or analog?
4) if you don´t buy a desk, what micpreamps/di boxes do you have or buy? which outputs do they have? (analog or digital)
5) will you be mixing in surround?

as soon as i have your answers, I´ll let you know, which components will fit into your system.

Besides the Vienna Instruments come with their own integrated sample player as AU and VST plug-in on both plattforms intel and ppc, no other third party player (like Giga, EXS Halion or Kontakt) is needed.

best
Christian Kardeis

@Another User said:

Besides the Vienna Instruments come with their own integrated sample player as AU and VST plug-in on both platforms intel and ppc, no other third party player (like Giga, EXS Halion or Kontakt) is needed.

For the sake of clarity, let me add that you will of course need a host to load the AU or VST plug-in. Some are cheaper than others. We personnaly tested both Rax and Plogue Bidule, and finally went with Plogue as we found it to be more powerful and more reliable than Rax.

Jerome

@Another User said:

on the money side, you would spend at least $600 more for each Mac Mini.

Even the ProFire - overkill since it has four lightpipes - lists for $500. It's going to sell for $400 on the street.

So that's an exaggeration. And to put a fine point on it, having to deal with 8U of boxes is inconsequential if the alternative is mixing problems created by the limitation of only having two outputs.

Nonetheless, I'm personally not at all convinced that an army of Mac Minis is the ideal solution for VSL. It is for Jerome's boss, but it wouldn't be for me (although it might be for a couple of slaves). Even before the audio interface issue, I'd rather put in more RAM and get more out each machine. You can put together Windows machines that work really well and possibly network audio and MIDI between them with FX-Teleport -which I haven't tried, but it's really the way to do it if it works - for considerably less. There's some of your 8U and money spent on interfaces back right there.

Don't get me wrong - I think the Mac Mini is a clever machine for many reasons, and I'm thinking about replacing one of my Windows machines with one. And there are always other factors, for example I'd find it much easier to maintain an army of Macs than Windows machines - partly because of my limited knowledge of Windows troubleshooting and partly because Macs simply are easier to deal with when things go wrong (unless you're cm, in which case it doesn't matter). But I wouldn't personally buy several of them specifically for VSL, at least not this generation.

Nick--

the ProFire is not out yet. This is why my figure was "at least $600".

We are strongly thinking about going to ADAT in a couple of months, for the same reason you mentionned (mixing).

This actually leads me to one important question to the VSL team: are the VI recorded in stereo or in mono?

Now, the reason why we went with the "Mac Mini as VSL farm" concept is because they're the cheapest *Mac* solution in regards to performances / price. This is just a simple fact. Putting more Ram into one machine to reach the 2.5GB barrier is the obvious choice, but there was no point if this was to get performance or latency issues (as we witnessed on other setups).

I am not trying to convince you that this concept would work for you. If there is one thing I learned in the year I've been working in Los Angeles is that every composer has a different way to work, and that to different needs, different solutions apply. What is important is that your gear allow you to do what you are good at - writing music.

But please do take into account that our needs and situation are very specific. Because the goal is to never access the VI GUI, we have most of the "generic" articulations (see one of my previous posts) from the Symphonic Cube loaded at all time. This translates to about 12GB of samples loaded in memory (1.5GB per computer). Taking into consideration the 32-bit, 2.5GB, limit, this would require about 5 (pretty fast) PCs to run.

Every situation is different, so this will no apply to everyone. Some people only use some, and not all, of the VI collections. Others don't care about having everything loaded in the background. Some use it as a plug-in. Some people will need more than one stereo channel for two instruments. And some even like PCs! [[[;)]]]

I even know some composers who just don't like the VI [:)]

But this topic was about the Mac Mini as a VSL farm. Is it working? Yes, and very, very well. And, yes, there are some shortcomings, some that can be fixed, and some that can't (for now, at least). It's worth it for us, but I never said it would be worth it for everyone [[;)]]

Jerome

Jerome:

There's no question on this end that following your reports has been amazingly enlightening, edifying and inspiring.

In the midst of troubleshooting, it's really refreshing to read that someone has found something that works for them.

Thanks for your generosity. You've given me new options to consider and a touch of hope where little existed before.

Peace.

Hi Jerome, it's a little frustrating when people sort of get on your back when you're sharing information and force you to come up with detailed justifications of your original posts isn't it. I don't understand and never have understood why people find the need to do that in forums of all kinds. Anyone who read the original posts and through the thread even lightly would have gathered what you have just pointed out in your most recent post as being "the very obvious", that is what is frustrating.

So basically I feel for you buddy I really do!

I read and found it intriguing and ingenius as I've already said the fact that it is modular is especially good for redundancy - if a mini dies, you just replace it, and also, I believe those machines can take processor upgrades if I'm not mistaken, so when the next intel chip comes out you can swap them over (if you even needed to). It's actually a very intelligent way to run the set up and good on you. One thing is for sure - thank you for sharing it, I'm sure the information you've shared here will really help a lot of people even if they don't copy exactly your set up, and it helps to know one thing, If I need more power from my own set up I know I can always just go and buy a mini and plug it into my stereo audio input. In other words: your sharing and input here is much appreciated by me and I'm sure several others at least.

Miklos.

I tell you what would be really interesting..... finding a way to be able to access the VI interface on those minis from a central terminal. Now that would be cool and would basically take out one of the primary things that makes your set up undesirable for some people. Is there a way to do this? even to just make small changes to an otherwise generic set up, or be able to load in a set up as you want but not necessarily need to access it at every moment?

Well, you can always do what we used to do with Gigastudio : having a monitor, keyboard and mouse dedicated to your VI computers, and switch between them when needed.

Interestingly enough, for some reason, Apple Remote Desktop doesn't allow to slide faders in the VI GUI! When moving the mouse, nothing happens.

So buying a KVM switch seems to be the best way to do it. But then you get into many issues since there are usually (on my setup at least) 5 or 6 instances loaded per Mac Mini.

Actually, I don't think I described this part of our setup, so here it goes:

In Logic, as I said, one track = one (or two) instruments. For example, I have a Flute 1 / Piccolo track.

We customized the environment so that to each track would correspond a set of 6 faders and 2 buttons, as follow:
1/ Velocity XF
2/ Cell XF
3/ Filter
4/ Attack
5/ Release
6/ Expression

a] "Velocity XF ON/OFF"
b] "Play Release ON / OFF"

The Logic Screenset is made in a way that the window showing the faders always stays at the same place, but the track it's related to changes according to the track you are currently working on.

When you move a fader with your mouse, it will move the same fader into the VI instance used by the track you are on. We also have a Midi controller (a Peavey PC1600x) and we set it up so that the first 6 faders correspond to the same faders in the VI. We also added Fader 7 for volume and Fader 8 for Pitch.

So, let's say you're on a Flute track, on the channel Flutter / Vibrato. You can play and move the 2nd fader to go in and out of the Flutter articulation. This is very cool with many articulations, like Cello Portamento to and from Cello Legato.

I'm just describing this to show that, thanks to the MIDI controller feature in the VI GUI, you can use all the faders and buttons from a distant computer, without ever accessing it. What you cannot do is unload/load samples, as you would need a remote connection or a KVM switch.

Jerome

That set-up works well for Jerome, Miklos - and for reasons that he explained perfectly rationally - but in my opinion it's not ideal for everyone. I don't know if you're including me in your criticism, but voicing that opinion is not jumping on anyone's back.

Two sources on the net are reporting a delay in bulk Mac Mini orders. A revised Mac Mini product line (chip upgrade) is expected sometime after Labor Day (September 4), according to the two most prominent Apple rumor sites.

Jerome,

thank you for describing your setup! I was actually talking to Freddy Wiedmann last night about the setup and environment that he built for John Frizzell...I can't wait to have another look at the newest he built for VI! Hearing all of this makes me feel even better about buying my macmini...thinking about expanding...

I have to say though that I've been thinking about waiting and getting one of the new macpros that apple is releasing...that is, if we have the software to support 64-bit hardware...then I'm wondering if we might be able to load the whole orchestra in 1 box.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around of the control available in VI...I'm not exactly an experienced MIDI programmer, so i'm still trying to figure out what works and what doesn't (granted...is seems as though everyone works with MIDI in VERY different ways).

Thanks again! I'll have to revisit this thread again just to wrap my brain around it all.

Having said that...I'm still trying to figure out why you don't like WormHole or...I can't remember the name of the other program...transportX or something like that...why you're not using ethernet to route audio back to the master...more reliable with real light pipe connections??

Josh

Well, this setup sounds really great to me, and one day I may even attempt something like it. Thanks for sharing, Jerome.

This is a tiny bit O/T, but I just remembered something. Nick, I don't know if you remember, but I was wondering about setting up an Intel Mac, using the built-in optical, and connecting it to my G5 using the built-in on that as well. I'm using a RME DIGI 96/8 card now to bring ADAT in from a PC slave, and was curious as to whether an aggregate device would distribute the sync between the built-in optical and the DIGI card... well, test done. Nope! Sync issues all over the place. So, my setup is a bit goofy, but here it is:

1) G5 - DIGI 96/8 PAD --> Sequencer/Mixer
2) PC Machine - DIGI 9636/52 --> Slave 1 --> ADAT into G5
3) Macbook (built-in optical) --> Slave 2 --> SPDIF into PC

This actually works, probably because RME is just a brilliant company. But I've had no sync problems between the Macbook and the SPDIF in on the 9636. It's a bit lame, because I only wind up with 6 tracks for the PC slave (and of course only 2 for the Mini), but it works. I should also mention that I wound up going _all_ hardware for MIDI - this seemed to perform best on the Macbook, with the least hiccups during playback.

Anyway, at the time you were also curious about whether the aggregate device would share the sync, so now you know! It doesn't... (at least, not succesfully).

J.

That is interesting, because aggregate devices "advertise" themselves as handling sync (it's one of the dialog options, as you say). I assume the RME card has an asynchronous I/O option?

What Jerome says about the Intel (I assume?) version of Apple Remote Access not working with the Vienna Instruments player is also interesting. It's hard to imagine what could cause that, since remote access should just be reading mouse positions etc. blindly. Weird.

Jerome,

Thank you for sharing your Mac mini and Logic test results!

I found the Frizzell & Wiedmann Logic Environment and see that it triggers dynamics changes based on score markings. Since Digital Performer is my primary sequencer, I'm very interested in hearing more about your friend's DP & Plogue Bidule setup for Edward Shearmur (the Sky Captain score is awesome, BTW). I have Bidule and understand that it can do transformations like Logic's environment. Could you explain in more detail how she is implementing this in DP & Bidule?


Thank you,

Mark

Jerome:

You give the following list of controllers:

"We customized the environment so that to each track would correspond a set of 6 faders and 2 buttons, as follow:
1/ Velocity XF
2/ Cell XF
3/ Filter
4/ Attack
5/ Release
6/ Modulation

a] "Velocity XF ON/OFF"
b] "Play Release ON / OFF"

Perhaps I am missing something, but I can't seem to find any controls on the VI interface for modulation. Am I blind or do you use anothe rplugin for this? Your descriptions have been most helpful to me and I think everyone else. Thanks.

Well, as far as I know, there's really no modulation option - but maybe he just means the parameter the modulation wheel is used for ... ?

Regards,
David Ender
VSL manuals

@Another User said:

Having said that...I'm still trying to figure out why you don't like WormHole or...I can't remember the name of the other program...transportX or something like that...why you're not using ethernet to route audio back to the master...more reliable with real light pipe connections??

I didn't like Wormhole because I found it to be unstable and thus unreliable. The only two places where I saw it running decently, both users had to press play in order to get sound from the slave... among other issues. Considering the need for 100% reliability (and, of course, excellent tech support), we had to dismiss the idea for now.

However, as soon as I see it running without any glitch whatsoever, I will definitely suggest it to my boss.

To my knowledge, FXTeleport runs only on Windows.

Jerome

@Nick Batzdorf said:

What Jerome says about the Intel (I assume?) version of Apple Remote Access not working with the Vienna Instruments player is also interesting. It's hard to imagine what could cause that, since remote access should just be reading mouse positions etc. blindly. Weird.

Hi Nick,

we're running ARD from a PowerPC computer. If my memories are correct (I am not in Los Angeles at the moment), the problem did happen also with our PPC slaves.

Jerome

@MarkG said:

Since Digital Performer is my primary sequencer, I'm very interested in hearing more about your friend's DP & Plogue Bidule setup for Edward Shearmur (the Sky Captain score is awesome, BTW). I have Bidule and understand that it can do transformations like Logic's environment. Could you explain in more detail how she is implementing this in DP & Bidule?

Hey Mark,

from what I understood, all the transformations are indeed happening into Plogue Bidule. I'm going to ask my friend to come by this forum and describe her setup. Hopefully she'll agree to take some time on the side to do so (as you can guess, she is pretty busy!). Ed Shearmur just ordered one of these Lemur thing, so that he can control the VI player with it, it sounds very cool!

Jerome