Instrument solo + Velocity X-Fade = doubling ?

[SyQuEsT]

Hello,

When using the X-Fade with solo instrument, around 50%, I heard two instruments. Specially when you use the bipolar option in the Map Control.

I think the solution should be the morphing technology. Does anyone hear this same "problem" ?

Thanks

[DG]

Yes, and agreed.....

DG

[tomhartman]

Yes I have heard this too...

TH

[SyQuEsT]

Herb, did you think about it ? Just a question ... [[;)]]

[SyQuEsT]

I'm working on an album and I use several solo instruments (viola, flute, cello, ...). It sounds very very well, except when X-Fade velocity is around 50% : I always have the doubling effect.

So, Herb, did you thing about it ? will we see a solution, a patch for this ? [[;)]]

Thanks team ... very good job !

[herb]

Simply solution: don't stop at 50%.
If necessary combine expression with velocity Xfade.

The concept of our velocity X fades technology is, to keep the "doubling effect" at a very small range. If you avoid this range (not stopping there) you'll get very flexible velocity crossfade solo instruments.
I think this works better than in any other sampler available.

The next step, morphing was not executable, it's too processor-power extensive. The possible polyphony/voices would be less than 5% you get out now with the VIs.
Which would mean a maximum of two instruments running on an average computer these days.

Maybe in the future...

best
Herb

[JWL]

I agree- I've had to keep the VX-Fade fader in motion to avoid too much of the effect, but at times on more exposed passages, the doubling effect on "sweep-thru" near the 50% mark is not 100% avoidable.

FWIW, I've had some fun actually exploiting this feature for some *happy accidents* on certain types of projects that benefit from the effect. Ensemble winds have been especially fun. While solo instruments suffer the most from this, I will miss this "flaw" once it is eliminated.

[SyQuEsT]

@herb said:

If necessary combine expression with velocity Xfade.

It's exactly the reason I see an expression Xfade "minimum/maximum limiter". So, I can combine the expression and velocity Xfade into one breath control (or whatever).

[DG]

@Another User said:

The next step, morphing was not executable, it's too processor-power extensive. The possible polyphony/voices would be less than 5% you get out now with the VIs.
Which would mean a maximum of two instruments running on an average computer these days.

Maybe in the future...

best
Herb

Hopefully when we are all using the next stage operating system with multiple processors and buckets of RAM then this will be possible.

DG

[svonkampen]

Morphing...between audio samples?

That is currently not possible.


The reason you can "morph" between two presets on various synthesisers (like the nord lead or Reaktor)...........Is because when the mod-wheel is at the bottom all the knobs (filters, envelopes,pulsewidth, tuning etc, etc..) are in one position (preset A) and as you move the mod-wheel to the top they move to their respective new positions (preset B).....

BUT with Vienna we are talking about samples (actual recordings)

There are highly complex, taxing processes such as dynamic-convolution and transorm-multiplication, but these would never give a satisfactory result......(the current "chorusing" would merely be replaced by some other unwanted artifact) especially to the hyper-critical ears of orchestral composers.

So you get a little chorusing at 50%...big deal (only really noticeable on solo instruments), I can live with that. I mean only 6 years ago.......I was still surrounded with a room full of Emulator 4's running a pathetic 128Meg of RAM per 5000+ box.........[;)]

It's not currently possible.

SvK

[cm]

well, morphing ... works very well for pictures (actually moving pictures) meanwhile, i don't see a reason why it should not work for audio (if well done, of course) but

@herb said:

The next step, morphing was not executable, it's too processor-power extensive.

ahh - and thanks for reminding us to working conditions and needed prerequisites not so long ago ... which sink into oblivion too easy
christian

[svonkampen]

cm,

You work for vienna right?

Explain the dynamic audio-morphing process between samples to me..........I tend to be a "know it all" [;)].....

But I would love to be convinced other-wise.

SvK

[cm]

just thinking loud in analogy to pictures: considering colour and brightness would not be enough, you have to add contrast (related to the surrounding), shading, movement, changing (in the sense of timerelated change of the previous parameters) and a set of rules which covers the fact that you work with a *likeness* instead of the real thing. don't you think the principle is very similar? and you have only one axis besides the time-axis ...
christian

[svonkampen]

CM,

hmmmm..

just found this (I'm NOT advertising)

fairly impressive...like I said I'm often wrong [;)]

listen to the examples CM.

http://www.garritan.com/stradivari.html

SvK

[svonkampen]

MOrphing huh?

"Sonic Morphing" technologies provided the answer. Morphing describes what can be seen in motion pictures where there is a gradual transformation from one image into another. This basic concept has been applied to sound samples allowing sound samples to morph into each other seamlessly. With the Stradivari Solo Violin, using exclusive "harmonic alignment" technology (patent-pending & developed by Giorgio Tommasini), you can seamlessly morph between different dynamics and hear authentic timbre changes as notes become louder or softer. Sophisticated modal resonance technology uses instrument body impulses and allows you to control the onset, intensity and rate of vibrato, impart portamento and much more. In addition, with the powerful AI midi processor you can change or create articulations in real time, change the type of attack or bow direction, impart legato, play trills & tremolo and have an infinite variety of playing possibilities at your fingertips. All this in real time!

SvK

[DG]

Yes, although I don't like the Garritan product very much I think that the technology is very impressive. The other product to look at is Synful. Again I don't like the sound, but for certain things it works very well. I think that with the Vienna teams attention to detail, it could become possible to play virtual instruments in a much more intuitive way in the future. If the "phase" issue was sorted out (and sometimes a few more velocity layers added) this could make programming less of a chore for me and more of a performance experience.

DG

[SyQuEsT]

I'm not sure but I don't think you have to integrate the morphic into your VSTi.

"Simply" morphing your sampler at the source could work ? no ? Only on the solo instrument should be nice. On the ensemble matrixes, this effect isn't too disturbing.

My 2 cents ...

[mathis]

The still best REAL audio morphing cababilities are provided by Kyma: www.symbolicsound.com.
I used it with great success, although it depends very much on the used material. But for orchestral samples I don't see a reason why it shouldn't work satisfactory. That is, once we're three computer generations ahead to get some polyphony... [[;)]]

[jbm]

Yes, the morphing of sounds is entirely possible. But I would suggest that the Stradivari is not specifically using "samples", as in raw recordings, but is rather managing this through a sample-resynthesis approach. Perhaps this is what Kyma does as well, though I don't know for sure (mathis?). But VSL's general philosophy of playing the raw recording at all times, I don't see this option coming too soon. There are advantages to both, I suppose, and each developer has to "pick their poison", so to speak.

J.