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  4. RIDICULOUSLY confused about proper panning when recording...

  • RIDICULOUSLY confused about proper panning when recording...

    M
    M
    Hi, everyone.
    I am getting very frustrated because I´m not an engineer, and the results I´m getting are weird.
    Basically, all my confusion arises from too many possibilities, and I don´t know which one is the best to achieve realistic and effective results.
    I´m looking for a detailed answer, so I´ll be as thorough as possible.
    So, this is the thing:

    I have a flute line (composed with different patches in different channels). They are all panned dead center. If I monitor it in stereo, it sounds full, with body. But, if I monitor or record it in mono, then it sounds much more thinner, like it´s missing stuff comparing to when I do it in stereo. I don´t know why, but it just feels "wrong" to record a mono instrument in a stereo track. Nevertheless, I´ve been doing exactly that (record every instrument in stereo), in order to not "loose" that extra warmth.
    So, what I´ve been doing is:
    I set all the flute channels in Gigastudio 3.1 to the same digital outputs (1-2). They go to my Tascam DM24 (via TDIF) to the 1-2 inputs. I use Digital Performer, so to record it to DP, I need to send the input of the DM24 to a buss (1-2), and from this buss in the DM24 send it to a stereo track in DP, who gets the signal from the 1-2 buss from the DM24 mixer. Then I record. It sounds full and warm, but it sounds "not placed in the stereo filed". It sounds too stereo. I want the flutes to sound, let´s say, at 11 o´clock. If I mess with the panning in the recorded audio file, they loose "meat".
    I read somewhere in this fourm that it was not a good idea to change the panning settings in MIDI; that it was better to do that in Audio. Did I understand correctly?
    Anyway, after I repeat that procedure for all the instruments, it sounds good, but TOO much stereo (without even touching the panners at either, MIDI or Audio stages). For example, the Horns sound too wide. The source of the sound is just all over the place. It should sound more focused and placed. Same with all the other instruments. The clarinets sound too stereo as well. I would like them to sound at a placing of 1 o´clock, but they sound, well, too stereo.

    The thing is that if I record in a mono channel, it looses a lot of its character sound. Sounds much softer and less full.
    There are many points through the signal where I might be doing something wrong.... When I have everything in MIDI, the tracks in DP are all panned dead center. BUT, I noticed that in Gigastudio I can unlink the outputs (I always have them linked). If I unlink them, then I could place the flutes, for instance, dead center in the Gigastudio outputs. But then, how should I monitor and record them? Should I also unlink the DM24´s input channels, and do them in mono?
    I did some tests, and the signal not only souns different, it also looks different (the waveforms).
    So, all I want to do is to record "THE FULL SOUND", without leaving anything out. Then, with a proper recording, I can do propper panning to the audio files.
    So far, the way I´ve been doing it, sounds ok, but too stereo, like there´s missing stuff right in the middle of the stereo field. I have too much right and too much left, but too little center.
    I am almost positive that´s because of the way I record the MIDIs to Audio. That´s where I´m doing my mistake.
    Any ideas? What am I doing wrong? What´s the best and most realistic way to record it? Should I record mono instruments in mono channels? How do I avoid loosing the character of the sound by doing that? Or, is it ok to record it the way I´ve been doing it (in stereo) and THEN, pan the audio files as I want? If I do this, it also seem to sound thinner.

    Please help me with this issue, because I´m very confused, and I don´t know at what point or points I´m messing things up.

    Thanks everyone in advance for your valuable help.

    Cheers,

    Fernando
  • M
    M
    Oh, Ok. I did a few tests and I think I get it a little better, but STILL don´t know what´s the best way to do it...
    The tests I did are: Since the horn tracks, for instance, go outside gigastudio in stereo, AND I receive them in stereo in the DM24, I can either:

    1.- Record them in stereo, just as I´ve been doing
    2.- Just record the left OR right sides from the DM24 to DP (but sounds thinner). I think I just figured it out. Of course it sounds thinner, since I record only ONE side, instead of the 2, so I´m missing the other side (the right one, duhh)
    3.- Record BOTH sides from the DM24 into DP, but DP in a MONO track, receiving in that same mono track BOTH sides of the DM24´s signal. So, I have to unlink the tracks from the DM24, AND send BOTH sides to the same mono track in DP. This seems to be the closest thing to achieve what I´m looking for, but are there any technicalities I´m overseeing, or making things worse by having phasing problems?? Would this 3rd option be sensible?
    4.- The same as 3, but send one side to a Mono track in DP, and the other side to a DIFFERENT mono track in DP. I´m not sure about this one, though, because it would be like recording it to stereo in the first place, right? This way I might have more control over the stereo spectrum, since I can pan to match the sound as if it was comming from the same place, but I´m not sure..

    Damn, I´m more confused now [8-)] [8-)]

    Am I complicating myself too much???
    What´s the best way to do it?

    Thank you soooooooooooo much.
  • J
    J
    First, put an instance of the DP Trim plugin on the track, and narrow the stereo width from 180 degrees to something narrower. Straight up and down in the Trim plug is mono, but it contains both left and right signals. That way, when you pan the flute, all of the sonic data will remain within the sonic spectrum.

    Otherwise, when you pan a stereo sample, the moment you start panning is the moment you begin to "fade out", as it were, part of the sound. Let's say you pan the stereo flute patch 90 degrees to the left. You will have, in effect, completely lost the entire left channel of the sample with most all of the right channel of the sample remaining on the left side.

    Using Trim in DP (or something similar in another DAW) will enable you to keep 100% of the sample's data integrity within the stereo spectrum.
  • M
    M
    JWL:
    Thanks for helping! Ok, I tried it and you´re totally right, it does work nicely.

    But I´m still not sure, then is it good to record ALL the instruments in Stereo? Or should I record them in mono (meaning the L AND R from the mixer into ONE mono track in DP?

    Doing what you suggest, then I assume I would have to use the Trim plug in for every instrument (if I recorded in stereo). Would that be a "normal" way of working, or is it just like a temporary solution. I mean, is that the way you usually do it? Or, there is a better solution to avoid repanning by trimming?

    Thanks for your insight.
  • J
    J
    Well, one way to do it would be to Trim them all to mono, if that's the sound you want. At least all the sample data from L/R will be included and in phase.

    I prefer to have a bit of stereo spread, even over a narrow spectrum, so the smallest radius I use is about 20 degrees (down from 180) for the strings. That enables me to pan strings into clearly defined spaces across the entire mix, if that is called for. On other occasions, I find it nice to have the inner strings overlapping adjacent strings sections slightly just to "unify" the string section a bit more where so much separation is not needed.

    Trim doesn't take much CPU, so depending upon your computer and RAM, it doesn't hurt much of anything to have multiple instances of Trim on each VI track. For the most part, I'll wait until I'm done with the sequencing and expression editing before inserting Trims on each track. This, for me, is the beginning of the mixdown phase. By that time, I'm nearly ready to render each track as audio anyway.

    With the audio files ready to mix, I'll create a new project with audio-only just to save resources-- and I'll remove the loaded VIs in favor of other signal processing. Sometimes, I find that I'll need to make an adjustment in the MIDI track, so it's easy enough to open the original sequence, make the edits, and then run a new audio file for that track. Because VI doesn't rely exclusively on MIDI velocity editing the way a lot of other orchestra libraries do, I find the need to go back and re-edit files fairly rare.

    There are those for whom this method is too tedious, and it is likely the very reason why many users insist upon running VI's and fx live right until the very end of the project on a multi computer network.

    The truth is, there's no single "right" way to do it. If you're getting the sound you want, then you've found the "right" way.
  • M
    M
    last edited
    last edited
    JWL:
    Thanks so much for clarifying this for me! [:D]

    @Another User said:

    I prefer to have a bit of stereo spread, even over a narrow spectrum, so the smallest radius I use is about 20 degrees (down from 180) for the strings. That enables me to pan strings into clearly defined spaces across the entire mix, if that is called for.


    EXACTLY. You nailed it, man.

    So, just to be totally clear: once I have the stereo field for a particular instrument under control (by applying the Trim), THEN I would go ahead and pan the audio track normally, right? For instance, if I have an oboe section in audio already, then by trimming to mono (or near mono), then I could opt to pan it a little bit to the left (around 1 'o clock) by using the regular panning controls in the DP mixer, correct?
    So , if I understand you correctly, if I do pan the audio file a little bit with this method, I won't "loose" any sound for the file because it was trimmed evenly, thus, when I pan it will sound fine. Did I get the idea?

    So, you also DO record your "mono" instruments in stereo, right?

    Please, if I misunderstood anything let me know. I'll start remixing this way tomorrow morning. I can already hear a clearer, more defined and spaced sound.

    Thanks for your advice!
    If anyone does something differently, please feel free to chime in.

    Best to all,

    Fernando
  • J
    J
    Fernando:

    You've got it. Trim narrows the spectrum, but it does so with the same center point straight down the middle.

    You can pan the narrowed sound anywhere you want, but I would avoid panning all the way left or right. That way you will not *lose* part of the stereo image. Trim allows for better use of the pan knob this way.

    Yes-- these Trimmed tracks are recorded as stereo. Trim can be adjusted as you go, and you might want to retain the stereo image as you adjust it.

    I use other sample libraries as well, and just to be clear, if the original sample was in mono and no Trim was used (no Trim would be necessary in that case) I just leave the track as mono and record in mono. Otherwise, I prefer to record everything in stereo wherever possible even on Trimmed tracks- unless for some reason I trimmed the sound all the way to mono.

    Yes-- if anyone has other advice, please chime in!!

    Cheers, Fernando, and good luck with your mix!
    JWL
  • H
    H
    I'm not using the same software but you could have a look at my mix chart from my VSL and Tech page. I use Direction Mixer as the panning, this is a logic plugin, and I don't use the track mixer at all.

    I use this to not only pan, but also to control the stereo width .. some instruments are narrower than others.

    It may be useful to you as a mix guide. It's on my site at www.elvenmusic.com.

    Head along to the VSL and Tech page .. scroll down until you hit the mix chart.
  • M
    M
    JWL and Hetoreyn:
    Thanks, guys. You rule!

    Man, I love this forum.
    It´s great when you leran something new, especially when you GET it. It´s like a huge bell in your brain that goes TOOIINNGGGGGG. That means, you´re not confused anymore, and everything makes sense.

    Thank you guys for making that bell ring loud and clear on my head.

    Saludos,

    Fernando
  • M
    M
    Hetoreyn:

    Very cool chart! Very useful. Thanks for providing that.

    Cheers.
  • J
    J
    Yeah-- Hetoreyn-- thanks for the info. Helps me, too!

    Fernando-- it's always a pleasure to BE of help, especially when so many here have helped me. Glad you're on your way.

    Saludos!!
  • H
    H
    No Problem guys. Although I defer to Beat Kaufmanns far more superior knowledge of mixing I'm glad that my chart can help. I'm improving it all the time as I find out more .. and I also try to put this help into the podcast aswell, share the knowledge so to speak.

    All the best