Julian,

Yes, I believe you are right that it's mostly a voice limit issue. Thanks for reminding me of that. I was mentally wrapped up in the RAM thing and was overlooking voices. The fact that I use a breath controller and velocity crossfader most of the time probably adds to the voicing density problem. However, it works well for most instruments musically and has become an important part of my work flow.
It seems that you, Plowman and I have quite similar rigs. But anyway you look at it and no matter what the careful observation of the problem may show it's still the same problem - insufficient resources on a single cpu to playback a large number of instrument articulations. It especially gets wobbly if you add in other software like Kontakt, etc., etc., etc.

Plowman,

I'm starting to feel pretty strongly about going to multiple cpu's. I don't know what form this will take yet. I guess this is the start of my investigation. I probably will wait until January before I implement any new system. This gives me the chance to hear from the Apple Developers Conference next week, AES in October, MacWeek and NAMM in the first part of Jaunary. By that time there will be further annoucements of new Macs (hoping even for a new Mac Mini) and developments with VSL and other library developers. This will give me the time and the mental resources to figure out the best way to go. I'm not counting out going the PC route either. If PCs present the best workflow I will go that way.

Is it SvK who has the Mac Minis? Does he use Plogue Bidule? I don't even know if each of the slave computers need an audio interface. It will be a real learning experience for me.

I feel for you on the Giga issues. I didn't get into this whole thing until Giga had mostly run its course. Glad I never had to go there.

If you use Intel Mac Minis, you don't need an audio interface if the s/pidf stereo output is enough for you.

If you want to get more discreet channels, then getting an audio interface will be necessary.

Jerome

Thanks Jerome,

That's one more important piece of info I will need. As much as I'd like to stay Mac there are some other considerations that will probably make me to go the PC route.

I probably should not hijack this thread with this topic. I'll start a new one as soon as I can conceive all the things I need to ask.

Best regards,

Jack

Jack, I salute your intrepid approach to PC networking. I've read svonkampen's thread with great interest (but limited undertanding) for several weeks.

I only have one PC left, a Carillon that's four years old. I've played VI's directly without latency, but Plogue Bidule introduced delays of nearly a half second (with only one VI loaded within it). Fixable, maybe, but then I'm left with VI's on a PC computer with no effects processing of its own.

And that's the stumbling block, really. If we're willing to slam a summed stereo output from a slave into our Mac and overlay a uniform verb on it, our world suddenly gets a lot easier. It's the differentiation of audio channels that starts the dominos falling. It seems to require either networking skills that I've yet to develop or cable sprawl from audio breakout boxes that I reflexively resist.

If I'm reading svonkampen's posts correctly, multiple ins into Logic are possible via networking. But then the clock issue came up in one thread, and frankly, I got scared away. The sad truth is, you only really internalize this stuff if you buy it and work with it.

I'll follow your progress. Six months could change the computer landscape quite a bit.

This is only half OT--

There is a banner up at WDCC that says "Mac OSX Leopard: Introducing Vista 2.0". Interesting mix of metaphors here.

To my understanding (however limited) this will be the harbinger of more tightly integrated Mac/PC networking or a whole new Pandora's Box of nightmares.

And while many of us are in line to spend some serious cash to get what we need over the next year or so to make our systems work, I have a feeling that the news coming from Monday's news on Leopard (and Vista) will have some significant impact (I hope) on how all of this networking business for heavy VI users might work --- one of these days.

I know how close-mouthed Apple is, but I can't help but to wonder just how much teaser code Apple has doled out to developers at this time with a vow of silence....? I turn, it makes me wonder what VSL is working on for 2007, and if it will still take a cityscape of computers to run the VI Cube...

Moreover, because of the mention of the word 'Vista' in this context, such things as MIR take on an entirely different timbre with Mac users.

Might we be at the beginning of the this-does-not-suck era? [[:|]]

The "solution" right now is to dedicate computers to orchestra sections or (even better but more expensive) half sections.

That's what we're doing here. On an Intel Mac Mini with 2GB of ram, we're able to load 4-5 instances with 9-16 patches loaded, including two legato patches per instance. I'm still in testing phase, but for now it works well.

We connect the Intel Mac Mini stereo optical output to an interface which converts four, 2-channel, S/PDIF to one, 8-channel, ADAT. Then we connect the ADAT to a MOTU 2408.

This gives us two stereo pair per orchestra section back to Logic - not bad at all!

Jerome

JWL,

The "Vista 2.0" thing is just Apple being cocky, along the line of the "I'm a Mac, and I'm a PC" adds. The idea, of course, is that Vista isn't even released yet (i.e., version 0.9b, or something), but Apple's already got Vista to version 2. You know, geek humour.

I'll be running one PC P4 2.8, 1 MacBook core duo 1.83, and 1 G5 dual 1.8 when I get back to the UK. We'll see how it goes, but I'm pretty optimistic. So far, the reports on Intel Macs with VI have been pretty great... I know I'll have to run XP on the MacBook for the time being because of the "external sequencer makes for popping" issue, but I'm sure VSL is on their way to a fix for slaved Macs, if it's not fixed already. That reminds me that I'm going to need yet another Vienna Key... yuk.

J.

OK, spent a relatively sleepless night on this network subject. I won't be surprised if there is a few more just like last night.

Not anywhere near any conclusions yet. However, I did notice on Apple's website today that there benchmarks for the new Mac Pro's were based on Logic 7.2.2. Hmm, I don't think I've seen any mention of this version anywhere. It would be wonderful to think that soon-to-be-released versions of Logic coupled with the Mac Pro might be able to finally address the full 16GB of RAM. Then again it might be too much to hope for so soon. Obviously there are some chapters that are going to be added soon to this whole story of VI networking.

I wonder when VSL will do their own benchmarking on the Vienna Instrument with a Mac Pro. Comments moderators?

I'm currently under the impression that some applications I plan to get require PC's only. Otherwise I would stay in the Mac world. The current state of VI networks seems so midieval. Plowman has me somewhat concerned over Plogue Bidule and what I know so far (which is still definitely very little) of the monitoring of slave audio seems Byzantine.

Still, if people can have networks of a master G5 and nine PC slaves, as reported in this month's VI Magazine, it must work.

Glad I don't have to do this all by tomorrow.

Jack,

7.2.2 IS the current version of Logic....just download the update.

SvK

@svonkampen said:

Jack,

7.2.2 IS the current version of Logic....just download the update.

SvK

You sure?

Julian

I didn't mean to discourage anyone from Plogue Bidule. Keep in mind, my PC is only a Pentium 4 1.7 GHz with 1.5 GB of memory. I can't explain why a VI standalone would play so well and Plogue would cause latency. But on equipment this old, no fair conclusion can be drawn.

I will say this in light of today's announcement: if there's anything in a user (like me) who resists complication (and does so increasingly as he ages), then all that could be done within VI and Mac / Logic / EXS can and should be pursued. The Mac endgame looks quite compelling.

I'm personally energized to see through the short term with hand-me-down Macs and/or Mac Minis. Sure, a 16 GB MacPro on Leopard may not be viable until well into '07. But it's worth the wait, because so much music can already be made between now and then. And "then" is an extremely powerful single computer workstation.

This is the closest we've ever been to a single computer orchestra with convolution reverb. I suspect MIR will require another computer, but I can live with Space Designer for a while. Times are good in this regard. Expensive, but good.

P.S. I haven't seen the whole presentation, because Apple's site is getting slammed. But in the background, I saw a graphic that said that Logic runs 1.6 times faster on a MacPro (compared to a G5 Quad, I'd assume).

SvK,

I am still aware of only 7.2. Where would one go to find 7.2.2?


Plowman,

Yeah, the new Mac Pro is compelling. I'm releived that I don't really have to move on a network at this very moment.

Now it seems that perhaps my current G5 along with a fully loaded Mac Pro will handle VSL VI quite well sometime after the first of the year. This is of course hoping that the Leopard OS and Logic come forward with a 64 bit system that can access all the memory and VSL does their homework to create a 64 bit VI. Then I can get a PC or two to handle any virtual instrument/application that needs that platform.

I'm sure that VSL realizes what this new computer can do for their system.

@Jack Weaver said:

SvK,

I am still aware of only 7.2. Where would one go to find 7.2.2?

I've seen 7.2.1, and I've read forums where members were *asking* if 7.2.2 would be announced soon, but 7.2.1 is the latest version I've seen so far. I could be half blind, though.

"Logic Pro 7.2.2 Results Up to 1.8x the plug-ins of the Power Mac G5 Quad."

That's from the Apple site, but I see no public release of 7.2.2 anywhere. This version A. is likely still in-house for diagnostics, and B. will offer compatibility with new hardware but few new features or fixes for the average end-user.

I think the next Logic will hinge on 64-bit optimizing, and that will take some time. Natives will start beating their sampled drums around NAMM '07 if by then Logic hasn't gone on record with a version that maximizes the WWDC's premiered hardware.

Remember, full 64 bit OS is news to us, not the Logic code writers.

My bad,

7.2.1 is current,


SvK