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  • Another cue.......

    Well,

    here is another excercise........Hermitage, I'm weening myself away from the "4 on the floor" factory chords....Is this more like it?

    I'm really trying to be really "open"........no basses, no thick horn pads (though I love them)...... [;)]



    Here's the link (it's short) Click on "Suspense"......

    SvK

    http://homepage.mac.com/WebObjects/FileSharing.woa/wa/default?user=svonkampen&templatefn=FileSharing1.html&xmlfn=TKDocument.1.xml&sitefn=RootSite.xml&aff=consumer&cty=US&lang=en

  • Svon,

    Good work, and as you may have noticed, getting rid of the '4 on the floor' block harmony has given you a couple of real plusses.

    Firstly, at the end of the first phrase, you've got a brief moment's silence. (I would have made this a fraction longer, but that's merely subjective)
    Valuable device in a composer's 'toolbox', silence.
    That moment provides a suspense in direct contrast to sound, and a springboard to the next phrase that enables you, should you choose, to make fairly big changes in orchestration, without the 'clunk'. Silences are just as powerful as sound, used sparingly, and with a deft touch. (Beethoven knew this too, so you're in good company!)

    And now, you can hear a lot more tone, making your overall sound cleaner, and richer. Personally, and i stress it's a personal decision, i've found the use of tonal variation a far more subtle effective tool for dynamics than just winding the slider up and down, be it soft or hard. ( The grey of too much can still be grey, whether it's soft or loud)

    And you may have noticed, because you've stepped away from '4 on the floor', and the use of octaves as a mainstay of harmony, when your profound moment comes, it makes a greater impact, providing a much greater contrast. Unisons are more powerful than octaves in this context, but like any orchestrated device, they are 'colours', to used for an emphasis, not as a stock in trade 'go to' to fill space. (4 on the floor again).

    A nice blend of swells between contrasting instruments too. While your harp provides an 'anchor' to keep things stable, the contrast in swells, changes the tonal characteristic as the swell progresses. So you not only get the rise and fall of the swell, you get a change of tone as well, that strengthens or 'reinforces' the swell statement.
    When you stack instruments in order of 'impact', as a harmony device, it's also worth remembering the following:
    When you have strings playing accompanying parts, and you want to just 'thicken' or 'broaden' the sound a little, (like a mini supercharger),add a woodwind. Provided you keep comparable dynamic levels (this usually works from soft to medium, after that the w/w tone changes to the extent that it 'detaches' itself from the blend of tone, and can stand out too much), the w/w is effectively hidden in the tone of the strings, but its presence 'alters' the dynamic space of the sound. Try this yourself. Clarinets are very effective at this, particularly with upper cello parts, and violas or 2nd violins. So if for example you were to repeat a phrase, and wanted to make a slight shift to highlight the change, but desired a soft change, not a large tonal shift, then this 'toolbox' device could be the one you seek. Contrary to popular perception, although w/w were thought of as primarily melodic instruments many years ago, they do provide other valuable services, and again Beethoven, and in particular, the russian composers knew this too. As a former orchestral wind player, i've played many parts where i got 8 bars rest, followed by a dotted minum, then another 8 or 9 bars rest. The composer wanted an added 'effect' for just a moment, and i was happy to oblige. Orchestral parts are not flat out all the time, even in the loud bits. (Rimsky-Korasakov provides great examples of real 'Tuttis' in the back of his work, Principles of Orchestration. You'd be surprised how many get left out.) Neither are w/w parts, or strings for that matter all frilly bits. As you've demonstrated admirably here, a simple minum, or semibreve, carefully placed, has the right effect. And worth remembering for the future, too many 'frilly bits' in a row will dull the ear to the effect, and therefore lose the impact. Although much of Baroque music employs a fair degree of this type of orchestration, there are still balancing 'stately' or other devices to give the ear a 'rest.'

    Good work, and great to hear your talent exercising it's potential. There's no doubt the overall sound's a lot cleaner and richer in quality.

    Have you been surprised at how little added harmony you actually need to add to create a fuller sound without cranking up the '4 0n the floor' factory machine?

    Finally, you wrote of enjoying thick horn sound. Useful in the right place, but you, by the nature of composition, must remain impartial to a large extent. What may seem right and enjoyable to you, could be the opposite for others.
    That's not to be confused with your unique orchestral style. Consider the thick sound you enjoy as another device in the toolbox, to be used at the right moment, for maximum impact.

    Nice work, my friend,

    Regards,

    Alex.

  • Definately too short!

  • You make a good sound. One of the best sounds in my view. But your love affair with Herrmann contiues I notice. You need to find your own voice - copying Herrmann in this day and age alas - is probably a waste of time.

  • Paul R...

    I know.....I'm not doing it on a conscious level though....It is just what flows through me when I write....

    I was fighting it for a while and then things sounded not nearly as effective as I liked.....

    At this point I would rather sound un-original but effective, than original and non-effective......

    I believe that finding ones own voice needs to happen naturally over time.....It's not something one can "force"....

    Take Brian De Palma as a director.........most of his earlier films: "Sisters", "Body Double", "Dressed To Kill", "Obsession" were all blatant homages to Hitchcock's films.....However later in his carreer he found HIS own voice..."Untouchables", "Scarface", "Carlito's Way".......

    However his earlier worx, were a neccessary stage to lead him to the De Palma movie we see today.

    I know you are right Paul, and it is a point of frustration for me.....

    One step at a time for me [;)]

    ps: The Herrmann sound will always work for film though.....I don't think it dates, it just worx.

    SvK

  • last edited
    last edited

    @svonkampen said:

    ps: The Herrmann sound will always work for film though.....I don't think it dates, it just worx.
    SvK


    It doesn't date provided you have a sense of things historic and their fundamental pigeon holes in time - if I can put it in that form. Unfortunately, a lot of younger directors seem not to have learnt the craft of earlier works - some may have.
    Hitchcock is naturally a cornerstone of any film school - i.e. techniques - lenses, cameras, lighting, angles etc. You can't copy that though, even if it's a homage - can't be done. Same goes for scores - even if it's Herrmann. Audiences today that frequent cinemas - less and less btw - want Zimmer style scores. Copy that if you want to get on.
    You can't say - OK, we'll do a Hitchcock. The guy was a genius with a very strange background and really quite morose life style. It's like saying - OK - we'll copy Einstein.

    OK - so where's the nuclear fusion then?

  • Paul R

    That's a bit harsh...

    For starters,
    not all films have a "Zimmer" score....HOward Shore's work can be really nicely understated (copland , silence of the lambs, gangs of new york)

    Concerning the "Herrmann sound....It is still very much part of Elfman's music and all the Shymalan' movies (James Newton at his best)

    Basic Instinct also was a very Hermmanesque score....

    There will always be a place for this style of scoring...

    SvK

  • Steve
    Before chopin's nocturnes, there was John field's 12 nocturnes.The (irishman) Of which chopin picked up the sound and structure. And went on to write his enormous body of work, And then bacame the king of the piano. Before mozart there was haydn & Christian bach whom showed him their style and technique, And gave him his style. Beethoven spun the diminished & paralells to a fury of stabs intertwined in harmonious symphonic melody. And his body of work is untouched also. Cerny was one of beethoven's students. If you listen to his compositions they favor towards beethoven. But not as clear or tasteful in some spots. None of these composers copied any of the works of others. They studied them to a certain degree, but never copied. Took ideas yes, For example Beethovens 5th. Sounds alot like the idea of Mozarts 43 symphony(last). At this point one can only reproof or guess by sound. Hermann had a nack for suspense.(Called: making alot of money). Which sounds like someone showed him how to use the diminished in suspense. And he captured it in spades mirroring to film. Obviously his better part of his youth was spent doing this. And there it is, where it counts in music.

    I think from listening to your demos. you are on the right track. If there is a problem to be discussed or being discussed its from The mastering & mixing end. Of which adds time confusion to the Belated headaches. And takes away from prime time spent indulging in the middle of the art of composing, the old way of scoring films. My old saying is "It sinks in, a day ahead of ones recognition" Then Time takes care of the fermentation stage in which ones studies is Then forseen by recognition and excels further, for editing purpose, be it what. I'm over 40. So As they say, I'm no count. But just thought I'd share my experience, in case one point manages to strike, or chime in. Your work sounds valuable and filled with talent. Does anyone today get recognition for time spent dabling with computers, studio etc...?

  • PaulP Paul moved this topic from Orchestration & Composition on