What horn can play high Bb5

[JBacal]

What horn (used by Mozart) can play a high Bb5? The Vienna horn only goes to F5 and the triple horn to G5.

Thanks,
Jay

[JBacal]

After some searching my guess is the alto natural horn in Bb. Any plans to sample this? It has a lovely hunting horn quality.

--Jay

[DaveTubaKing]

Well it's possible on your standard french horn in F. That note appears in Maxwell Davies Brass Quintet and sounds extraordinary as indeed any note above the usual top C (F5) does. However I suspect it's very much the province of virtuosi's only.

Otherwise it's fairly standard range for good brass band Tenor Horn (in Eb) players.

It would be nice to get a definitive answer from a horn player.

PS just realised you mentioned Mozart - nevermind!

[DG]

I'm really confused. Assuming Middle C to be C4, then Bb5 (sounding) is highish for a Trumpet. I know that R. Strauss writes F5 on occasion, but I wouldn't really want to go any higher.

DG

[DG]

@JBacal said:

What horn (used by Mozart) can play a high Bb5? The Vienna horn only goes to F5 and the triple horn to G5.

Thanks,
Jay

Jay, are you sure that this isn't basso horn in Bb (sounding a major 9th lower)?

DG

[JBacal]

DG here is a short clip of the note in question. What do you think is playing this?

www.members.aol.com/jbacal/Mozart_High_Horn.mp3

[DG]

@JBacal said:

DG here is a short clip of the note in question. What do you think is playing this?

www.members.aol.com/jbacal/Mozart_High_Horn.mp3

It sounds like a French Horn played badly...! This should not be on a French Horn IMO, but as you say, an Alto horn.

DG

[Angelo Clematide]

@JBacal said:

What horn (used by Mozart) can play a high Bb5? The Vienna horn only goes to F5 and the triple horn to G5.

The 16th partial of a "High Bb" natural horn is a Bb5. (german "hoch B" Waldhorn)

The "High Bb" natural horn is the third highes of all circa sixteen natural horns. The two higher ones, the "High B" natural horn and the "High C" natural horn where never used in classical symphonies.

A good example of very high range is W. A. Mozart "Symphonie Concertante" (K.V. Anhang I, 9) with a "Corno in Es".

.

[Angelo Clematide]

Eratum:

The 11th partial of a "Eb" natural horn is Bb5. This also explains why it's sounds out of tune i case he played it on a Eb horn. The playable partials on a natural horn are 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 12

The 16th partial of a "High Bb" natural horn would be F6

.

[ZeroZero]

I remember from my trumpe/trombone days, that these instruments playing altissimo range which was achieved by pursing the lips to get partials as the horn is enssentially the same construction I assume thatthe player would be doing this


Zero

[saxophone4]

The high horn question reminded me of this.

http://www.thepetersonproject.com/VerMeulen.htm

Actually there are a bunch of funny music movies on the site

[Angelo Clematide]

I don't know what your prefered instrumentation books say about the Natural Horn and applying natural horn technique on the valved horn. It is not easy to fully understand for a composer, and needs some deeper studies. The internet is also very sparse with Instrumentierung & Instrumentenkunde

Here some links for you:

Hornharmonics
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Image:Hornharmonics.jpg

Definition of French horn
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/French_horn

Applying Natural Horn Technique to Modern Valved Horn Performance Tractice
Heidi F. Wick. Dissertation
http://www.ohiolink.edu/etd/view.cgi?osu991314575
The Dissertation
http://www.ohiolink.edu/etd/multiview.cgi/osu991314575/Dissertation.pdf

_____________________________________________________________________

A professional book written for composers is:

Lehrbuch der Instrumentation und Instrumentenkunde
by Herman Erpf
B. Schott's Söhne, Mainz 1959
ED 2609
ISBN 3-7957-221-X

This book will explain all what you have to know as a composer about instruments. It is the full curriculum text of a professional education at a music academy, also the first text i learned. Normally the text of a professor is not available in book form, but you write your own hand written copy during lecture. I don't think something similar exists in another language then german.

.

[Angelo Clematide]

I did a quick research, there are no books in english about

Instrumentation and Instrumentology

I guess you all have to learn german to become great composers, respectively to master the basics with books.

[[[:)]]] [[[:)]]] [[[:)]]]

.

[sgentry]

Hi,

Horn player here. Saw this interesting discussion.

Actually, the 12th partial of the natural Eb horn is Bb4 so, if played on a natural Eb horn (and it sounds like it is from the slight stopped quality of the Ab 3 notes from the end), this would be the 24th partial (very high!). I think the quality you are hearing is because the horn gets very slippery above the 12th harmonic. BTW, this is some outstanding playing for natural horns. Who is it?

I think most players would opt for a high Eb or F descant horn for this passage.

R. Strauss wrote an A5 (high E for F horn) for the first horn in his Sinfonia Domestica, so this pitch is not that far out of the question for standard symphonic range. Also, look to Haydn's Symphony #48 "Maria Theresa" for some other classical era high horns (C alto).

As for sampling, the natural horns have quite a different quality than the modern orchestral double (and triple) horns, but I think the Viennese horns come close at times to capturing that original quality.

Steven