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  4. dB and MIDI - three questions

  • dB and MIDI - three questions

    A
    A
    a) Are all sample preassigned at -6dB in the vsl presets?

    (i use Kontakt at the moment)

    .

    b) Is there a MIDI specification who tells how the level is at a given velocity? I.e. a test tone at full level reaches at velocity 127=0dbFS and at velocity 1=-72dBFS and so forth?

    (Well i remember that i measured that once long time ago, but can't find the paper)

    .

    c) Are the vsl samples recorded at a standardized level, respectively transfered in a standard for delivery. For example, all f (forte) samples reach max. level 0.01 dB at the loudest point, and p (piano) samples reach another number?

    .
  • A
    A
    I measured the dynamic range who can be done with MIDI:

    velocity/dBFS

    127 = -1.9 dBFS
    096 = -9.3 dBFS
    064 = -18 dBFS
    032 = -27 dBFS
    001 = -39 dBFS

    That gives a total dynamic range of 37 dB on the FS scale. Compared to a 72 dB dynamic range of a orchestra recording on a 16-bit CD.

    This translated to dynamic indications in music is: pp to ff
    No ppp or fff and we can forget completly pppp and anything below and ffff and above. Not even possible with fader automation to extend to this dynamic range, because of the absence of samples with this dynamics.

    The measuring was done with the VI_14L_mV_sus patch and a three note chord, a G3 single note. Do we need ppp, pppp and ffff samples? Maybe, at the moment we don't have any, and it would be a awful lot of work to mix them, and possible only when working in a state of the art environment.

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  • H
    H
    A fff tutti of an orchestra compared to the quitest parts can have 72 dB.
    But that's impossible for any solo wind or string instrument.

    Just analyse the original performed dynamic samples of any instrument or section to get the info which dynamic range is possible. It's around 30dB sometimes less.

    If you layer 20 different instruments/samples at full level and compare it to a pp performed sample of a solo wood or string instrument you will get a very high dynamic range - maybe even to high.

    best
    Herb
  • A
    A
    Well, i had that very extreme range once of 72 dBFS, it was the composers idea to have the musician perform so extreme, the
    CD was practically not usable, after 10 minutes of pppppp, all
    of a sudden some loud tutti came. If anybody would have turned
    the volume up to hear the pppppp, the speaker would have gone
    behind the Jordan, and it provoked a scandal from the side of
    SONY classical towards the producer, however the CD is available.

    .
  • N
    N
    The problem is that as far as I know, no MIDI keyboard has that kind of response. Scarbee Imperial Drums has lots and lots of velocity layers, for example, and it's ahead of any controller I know.

    You could expand the dynamic range automatically by using a downward expander plug-in, though.
  • A
    A
    Nick...
    that's not the problem, or better said it is. MIDI can trigger a dynamic range of 47 dB from 1-127 on a single note and sample, that's it and nothing more.
  • N
    N
    I don't use a downward expander on individual instruments either, but I'm also not the least bit bothered by the dynamic range. It was just a suggestion if you want more.
  • A
    A
    Herb... how where the four layer patches dynamic indication wise thought when you produced them?

    100-127 = forte
    085-108 = mezzo forte
    056-088 = mezzo piano
    001-055 = piano

    0r anythyng else?

    The thing is, that level wise i get near a dynamic range from ppp to ff, but the sound at the lowest layer alway kind a sounds like piano, even at velocities of 1-10.

    .
  • H
    H
    The lowest level of a four (or more) velocity layered instrument is mostly a pianissimo performance.

    1-55 = pp
    56-88 = p-mp
    89-108 = mf-f
    109-127= f-ff

    best
    Herb
  • A
    A
    Thanks Herb!

    Here the segment at p and pp, and my very first execution with VSL .
    Have a listen, you never heard your library in such a curious way before.

    An Evening Without Angels_scene1_preliminary.mp3
    http://beta.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=8C7239450674793A

    .
  • H
    H
    Cool piece of music.
    Just a question, are you sure that you are triggering the lowest velocity of the bass clarinet?

    That's the pp sustain sample of the low C:

    http://vsl.co.at/upload/forum/BKL-L_pA_sus_pp_C2.mp3

    I an not sure but I think I hear the p sample in your piece:

    http://vsl.co.at/upload/forum/BKL-L_pA_sus_p_C2.mp3

    best
    Herb
  • A
    A
    Brrrrr, that pp bass clarinet is shivering, that would improve my pp needs by lightyears.

    Where are they? The woodwind I or II pack doesn't mention pp samples in the articulations. Opus doesn't have a bass clarinet KEYSWITCH patch. I'm one of this blokes who thinks, if it's not written in the advertisment, it doesn't exist.

    Did you produce many pp's with instruments, who are capable playing this intimate indication? - Is there somewhere a overview of patches which have pp, or are they generally the KEYSWITCH patches only?

    howdy doodie

    Mr. Pianissimo

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  • A
    A
    OK, i found out how to get the dynamic indication expression marks.

    When applying a Keyswitch Velocity patch, i get where i want the dynamics. Then i have a full layer for each indication, quasi [4x(1-127)] from pp to ff.

    Just hope all instruments have such Keyswitch Velocity patches.

    Mama mia, why nobody told me that it is that simple. Have to re-asign this to the already done five arrangement in sound design.

    later

    Mr. Piu Pianissimo
  • A
    A
    Herb...

    here a chart of dynamics

    http://courses.dce.harvard.edu/~physe1b/OHP/12a/vis13a8.gif

    .