BRUCE,

I really am not trying to be this analytical "told ya so" guy...........I'm a composer and wish as all of us do, to make what I hear in my head (that'll be the day[;)]

I did just figure out that the release samples default to always on......when you right-click in that field you can assign a controller to turn them on, only when needed.

This gets rid of a lot of stuttering (definitely polyphony overload) But there is still stuttering...

The problem is that i need approx. 8 VIs for each string section.

8 for celli
8 for violins
8 for violas
8 for basses


having 2 for each string section is to confusing and limiting. I was hoping on running 16 VI's on each G5 (the ram is there and everything loads up.....but the cpu's can't handle 16 VI instances)

Remember my old VSL lib could handle 70+++ instances of EXS24s



SvK

Well there's no doubt that the EXS's are far more efficient than the Vienna Instruments. And turning off the release samples can help a bit. So we just need a more efficient VI. Time will tell.

Bruce....

I'm in the VideoGames Industry...I deal with people writing code for our Game Audio Engines every day.....

Now,

A great programmer will make an app (plug-in) with all the same features as a not so great programmer BUT the great programmer will make it run super-efficient! (way less cpu load)

That is the problem here. There, I've said it.......... [;)]

SvK

I bet that lossless 24 bit compression is hittin' that CPU like no tommorrow.

SvK

ps: thanx for being there for my rant...i feel much better now

ps: hope your muse is workin' hard for ya [;)]

SvK

BERNARD HERRMANN IS GOD

@svonkampen said:

The problem is that i need approx. 8 VIs for each string section.

8 for celli
8 for violins
8 for violas
8 for basses

Why? I'm running 1 for each section using keyswitch and controllers. It's a hassle but I have only 5 instances and 5 corresponding midi tracks.

@Another User said:

The Quad makes the dual 2.5 look sick in comparison.

Can you be more specific about that, Bruce? You mentioned the buffer in DP, but other than that? In what areas do you notice a big diff?

I haven't heard anyone else report this, so I'm intrigued.

dpcon:

Becuase it is a hassle and more importantly it is limiting.

What If I want to play a simple octave of celli...where the bottom note is a non-trem PFP and the top note is a TREM PFP

and underneath all of that I want to hold a cluster of celli flauts that slowly morphs/ into celli trills?


no can do with 1 instrument per section. There are simply to many times when a composer "splits" his sections for various duties.

Now I can revisit my presets and condense down to maybe 6 per section....

BUT still for 11000$$$ I should have VI plugs that run LEAN like exs24......

If I can run 70+++EXS24s, then asking for running 16 VIs isn't too much.

SvK

I would like to second the observations made by SvK. I am currenlty working on a piece for string orchestra (6 6 4 4 2) in which most of the sections are written for soloists, so basically I have 22 solo string parts. I could easily have 65-70 instances of VSL running on my dual 2.5 G5 with the 4GB RAM that I used to have. Since purchasing the VI solo strings and upgrading my RAM to 8 GB, I am having tremendous difficulty getting even 16 instances of VI running, with only a single combi matrix per instance. The other voices I supplement with VSL patches.

I also notice that memory does seem to be leaking.

Michael Matthews

The thing is "sampler based" plug-ins should NOT take up loads of CPU..

Not even Kontakt 2 does.

As long as all they are doing is crossfading, playing notes, randomising variations and cutting other notes off, some enveloping......the hit to the CPU is minimal.

And that is ALL that VI is really doing!

So the CPU hit per instance is OFF way OFF.

SvK

ps: I've set up miroslav patches in NI Kontakt2.....with randomising variations, crossfading, release samples....REALLY complex patches....In short (minus lossless compression) everything that VI's do...and the hit to CPU is MINIMAL.

SvK

This are our official stresstest results for OSX:

TEST COMPUTER 1

Processor: G5, 2 x 2.5 GHz,
Ram: 4 GB
OS 10.4.2
Data storage: Firewire 800
Host application: Logic 7.1.1
Soundcard: RME HDSP MADI with 648 MADI Interface

Latency at 512 Samples (12ms) / 2.5 GB Ram usage
Maximum Vienna Instrument instances: 24 (CPU 90%)
Maximum Samples loaded: 45000
Maximum polyphony: 300 stereo voices / (CPU 70%)

Latency at 256 Samples (6 ms) / 1.74 GB Ram usage
Maximum Vienna Instrument instances: 23 (CPU 70%)
Maximum polyphony: 200 stereo voices / (CPU 75%)

TEST COMPUTER 2

Processor: iMac G5 single, 1.8 GHz,
Ram: 2 GB
OS 10.4.5
Data storage: Firewire 400
Host application: Logic 7.1
Soundcard: Built in Audio

Latency at 512 Samples (12ms) / 1.08 GB Ram usage
Maximum Vienna Instrument instances: 11 (CPU 85%)
Maximum Samples loaded: 17400
Maximum polyphony: 250 stereo voices / (CPU 80%)

Latency at 256 Samples (6 ms) / 1 GB Ram usage
Maximum Vienna Instrument instances: 9 (CPU 85%)
Maximum polyphony: 160 stereo voices / (CPU 80%)

HERB,

Processor: G5, 2 x 2.5 GHz,
Ram: 4 GB
OS 10.4.2
Data storage: Firewire 800
Host application: Logic 7.1.1
Soundcard: RME HDSP MADI with 648 MADI Interface

Latency at 512 Samples (12ms) / 2.5 GB Ram usage
Maximum Vienna Instrument instances: 24 (CPU 90%)
Maximum Samples loaded: 45000
Maximum polyphony: 300 stereo voices / (CPU 70%)

Herb I can load 24 instances of VI easy.....BUT I can't play any of it multitimbrally without massive cutting out and stalling.....I'm not making this up and I really do know what I am doing.

The loading up is not the issue.


Any chance of you guys running these tests with current OSX?

10.4.2 is ancient 10.4.6 please

And current Logic 7.2 (7.1.1 is old now)


maybe something happened since Logic went over to universal binary....

thanx [;)]

SvK

@svonkampen said:

dpcon:

Becuase it is a hassle and more importantly it is limiting. What If I want to play a simple octave of celli...where the bottom note is a non-trem PFP and the top note is a TREM PFP and underneath all of that I want to hold a cluster of celli flauts that slowly morphs/ into celli trills?SvK

I can understand and instance per divided part. I just haven't seen many 8 part divisi's in my day. But after all we are talking samples and anything goes really. As far being able to run a lot of VI's I too can only run a very few (either on a 3.4 ghz PC or Dual 2.7) so I'm with you on that. Hopefully there will be an improvement in this.

dpcon,

I'm not writing 8 part divisi's

But I like having a seperate VI for dynamics, legato, trem-trill dyn's, flauts, sord.....this allows me to have a legato line........layered with a pad, and also allows me to crossfade ifrom the leg line into whatever, instead of a "hard" keyswitch".

that is 6....i will re-evaluate my thinking and try to condense to 4 with more key-switching...

BUT...i shouldn't have too [;)]

SvK

@Another User said:

The Quad makes the dual 2.5 look sick in comparison.

Can you be more specific about that, Bruce? You mentioned the buffer in DP, but other than that? In what areas do you notice a big diff?

I haven't heard anyone else report this, so I'm intrigued.

Hi Nick. Like svk says above that it is no problem loading the VI's in a G5 with enough Ram. The real acid test is how well do they perform in real time. I have noticed that the Quad generally outperforms the 2.5 Dual by a factor of about 2:1 when it comes time to use 8 Altiverb 5's and tons of notes including harp sustains and keyboards needing a lot of polyphony, alongside the VI's..So on my system (2G5's) I am using the Dual 2.5 to host just the woodwinds and percussion. All the strings brass and keys + Altis run on the Quad. Also I have been experimenting with the Host Buffer Multiplier in DP 5. This is not the 512/256 regular buffer. It is something else. You can set it at 1,2,3, or 4. I had it at 1. But now I see a huge iimprovement when it is set at 2.

HI everybody,

I just got back from a discussion with our chief Audio Programmer at the video-game company I work for...(He is considered one of the very best in our business)


I explained the differences to him regarding the old EXS24 16bit VSL VERSUS the new VI instrument 24bit Lossless Compression system...

Here are his comments:

When playing back an uncompressed WAV file that is loaded into RAM the CPU takes no hit whatsoever.

When playing back a 24bit Lossless compression Audio file (it is 2to1 compression....meaning the 24 bit file only takes up 1/2 the space it would uncompressed) the computer takes quite a hit....He could not say how much, but it's there....Now factor in crossfades, stacking, each file needs to uncompress on the fly to play (you see what I'm saying), release samples...polyphony builds up quick (each file hitting the cpu)

So ........It stands to reason that if we were able to turn the compression OFF......We would need twice the RAM to load all this stuff BUT the CPU would be able to play WAY more VI instances.

SvK

I would rather have compression turned off.....and strap 2 to 4 G5s together.......and not have my CPUs crap out, when composing.....

SvK

@Another User said:

HERB,

Processor: G5, 2 x 2.5 GHz,
Ram: 4 GB
OS 10.4.2
Data storage: Firewire 800
Host application: Logic 7.1.1
Soundcard: RME HDSP MADI with 648 MADI Interface

Latency at 512 Samples (12ms) / 2.5 GB Ram usage
Maximum Vienna Instrument instances: 24 (CPU 90%)
Maximum Samples loaded: 45000
Maximum polyphony: 300 stereo voices / (CPU 70%)

Herb I can load 24 instances of VI easy.....BUT I can't play any of it multitimbrally without massive cutting out and stalling.....I'm not making this up and I really do know what I am doing.

The loading up is not the issue.


Any chance of you guys running these tests with current OSX?

10.4.2 is ancient 10.4.6 please

And current Logic 7.2 (7.1.1 is old now)


maybe something happened since Logic went over to universal binary....

thanx Wink

SvK

Hi,

I don´t have the G5 dual here at the moment but can grab it later today and run the same tests in 10.4.6 and Logic 7.2. However I don´t expect it to be that different.

Maya

MAYA,

please do, that would be great......

Is it possible that you tell us what sort of test this is?


thanx so much...

SvK

MAYA,

Here are some insights in to other MAC CPU related problems...

problem 1:

While in Logic 7.2, select a sustained VI string instrument. Now play the keyboard.....every once in a while the sound just "cuts off" (this is not a polyphony thing, as we are only sustaining 1 note....it happens in standalone as well......so not a L7 issue)


problem 2:

While in Logic 7.2, enable the record-switches of any 3 Leg String instruments...(so you are playing 3 patches of VI simultaneously).....now play an appregiated triad in Legato (just drum your fingers on the keys)......Everything starts to stutter and break-up.....Even with release samples turned off......Now intersestingly, when you record this appreggio and have the sequencer play it back, the stuttering is reduced (probably, because the sequencer can look ahead).

I am still certain that "Lossless compression " is really impacting the CPU performance....THIS IS A BIG ISSUE.........

Since when opening old-sessions created with VSL/EXS 24, and replacing all those instances with VI's (newlibrary) ....those sessions will NOT play...



Like I said, RAM is not the issue, everything loads...It's CPU performance that gives in.


LAST THING:

I understand that PC's have a 2 Gig RAM cap, as opposed to the possible 4 to 8 gig RAM on a MAC..........Something tells me that the lossless compression, was a sheme to get more sounds into the PC's at the xpense of CPU power, consequently MAC users now have to suffer the shortcomings of this compromise due to the PC's RAM limitations.....

I still belive that a "16bit-uncompressed" version of this Library would be a GOOD thing...for Layout purposes and composition....All these CPU issues would go away.....At this stage things are at a standstill.

Setup a bunch of servers, launch the batch processors, and dither down to 16bit. So we can enjoy this awesome achievement, instead of having to wait for technology to catch up with your product.

SvK

I think streaming 300 stereo voices with 70% CPU usage proofes that there should not be any issue with compression.
I'm no expert, but I'm quite sure that uncompressed 24bit data wouldn't allow this amout of voices, because of physical bottlenecks.

best
Herb