VSL statement concerning alternative tunings?

[Happy Tree Friend]

After some weeks of working with the VIs, i have to say that working with the VIs is a new dimension in sound and handling.
There is only one thing which is a huge minus: the fact that the VIs can only play in a perfect tempered tuning, which is maybe the only one thats definitly never used by real orchestral musicians (with few exceptional instruments).

I mentioned this in some post before, but never got an answer from the VSL team, if and when its possible to use e.g. the tunings inside of Logic.

Now, it would be important for me to have a statement therefore.

I can imagine that the option to have more naturalistic tunings makes a problem with legato instruments but have to say, that using the EXS24 VSL instruments (which use similar legato samples) with different tunings works pretty good.

So the only way actually is to use the EXS24 versions in textures i want to have an improved intonation - what cant be the solution after having those great VIs.

Using the VIs in a tempered tuning is a bit like eating a luxurious menu out of MacDonalds-style dishes covered with ketchup.

the random detuning option also is an absolute must with sampling at that level!!!
(i know, there's a pitchwheel, but thats no solution)

So these two aspects would help to achieve a much more realistic result with the VIs that actually in lot of cases can be just detected as "fake" by there intonation.


So it would be nice to hear an official statement on this topic!

Greets:
HTF

[Happy Tree Friend]

Hi Herb, cm, golem, Paul etc.

I asked a question that is not difficult to answer.

As a German Software Developper told me, it is technically possible that an Audio Unit sticks to Logic's tuning- hermode tuning for example.

I asked the same question to the support of Spectrasonics and Synthogy and got an answer within 1 day.

To be honest, the fact that my question is simply ignored, sucks a lot.

I can imagine that you consider this topic as absolutely useless.
Several musicians with fine ears do not - Friedrich Gulda, a pianist you may have heard about e.g. used Pianos with different tunings depending on the kind of music he played - thats one of the reasons, why his Mozart recordings e.g. sound lot better than those of most other artists.


as far i invested about 7000 € in VSL stuff, the VI cube is a big part of that.
I know thats no money for the VSL team, for me it is.
In any case, its enough that you could answer a question!

[Dietz]

Dear Happy Tree Friend,

Thaks for your interest. Please keep in mind that we are still a small company, and in the forefront of huge and important events like the Musikmesse Frankfurt everybody is busy with preparations for these occasions.

While we are anxious to keep our "ordinary" support running smooth during these times, it may take some time to get response for more "visionary" topics in days like that.

Thanks for your patience.

[Angelo Clematide]

@Happy Tree Friend said:

There is only one thing which is a huge minus: the fact that the VIs can only play in a perfect tempered tuning, which is maybe the only one thats definitly never used by real orchestral musicians (with few exceptional instruments).......

Happy Tree Friend..

It would be interested to hear which of the many historical tunings you suggest.

.

[Happy Tree Friend]

Hi Angelo,
well, the historical tunings themselfs are more realistic for instruments with a fixed pitch (BTW: i think, Gulda used Kirnberger on some Mozart Sonatas (eg. Sonata Nr9 etc).
for orchestral playing, the situation is much more complex, but hermode tunings are a beginning.
The problem is, that in fact, to make the thing really professional, it would be necessary that one is able to switch the keynote of a tuning depending on the harmonical meaning in a texture (Leopold Mozart already gave the advice to violinists that they should write a "Plus" or a "minus" specially to the thirds of (major)chords, depending if those chords are dominantic (high intonated third) or tonical (or subdominantic) - in the tempered tuning, the third of a major chord is about 14 cents to high, and thats psychoacousticaly quite a lot.

Now, in chamber music that natural intonation is normally heard on a high level -if the ensembles are good- but in an orchestra, an important aspect of the overall sound is more the _de_tuning of some instruments in some passages.
i've written about this in an other thread (random detuning), because that thing is really the key, that for example unisonos in brass or woodwinds dont sound like a synth-organ.

The other thing is, that several tuning systems are necessary if one wants to write ethnical textures, arab, indian music etc. use often different intervals and that can be heard very, very clearly -
for example the great "zigane" articulations would have more sense in addition with that possibility.

Greets:
HTF


@Dietz: thanks for that statement! I understand you're busy and i'll be patient [[;)]]

[Angelo Clematide]

I guess what you suggest is a possibility to adjust the sample player to a certain scale. This to play compositions from Mozart, to have pure intervals and chords with pieces who stay withhin the range of limited tonalities, so their modulation are more or less pure sounding. Kirnberger published a system of tuning (“Die Kunst des reinen Satzes”, Berlin 1779). Some people believe that this was the system of tuning used by Johann Sebastian Bach.

Where pure temperaments are usable

Indian classical music is quasi modal, using the right scale for the different Raga’s is mandatory. But does not really relate to western orchestra instruments, however I composed, arrange and orchestrated twice a sitar solo concert for Shankar many years ago. That was quite inventive to bring movement to the orchestra with one mode.

In Mozart’s time, keyboard instruments were tuned to a number of compromise temperaments, in which some tonalities were more pure, others less, this giving the chords of each key different characteristics deriving from their purity or dissonance. The results where unique flavors for each key ---> unique, not really better in the far away tonalities, but sure ugly when modulating to far away to tonalities not suitable for the temperament, what he never did of course, Mozart i mean..

Today, Mozart’s music is not the best example for the problems who occur when tuning to a pure temperament, since he did not modulate far, respectively Mozart did not compose multimovement instrumental work, nor did he compose in key signature of more than four sharps or three flats. With music from Mozart utilizing a pure temperament may would improve purity.

To perform historical music, I agree, it would be great that sample player have presets for all sorts of historical tuning plus the ability to make your own. - That is probably no big deal to program a scale detuner for all twelve notes, and Dietz's programer can do that in one afternoon. But we are limited to the 12 samples per octave from the library, i.e. no 22-tone scales for microbiological music.

Where the use of non equal tempered tunings is not usable

Today, or since 160 years we compose modulation where any degree can be following by any degree in any tonality, here old tunings are completely useless. For example, the piano piece “Two To The Power Of Eighty-Eight” from 1982 moves thru 66 tonalities withhin 70 bars. Basically all european music composed in the last 160 years is based on equal temperament. Not counting Harry Partch (1901-1974), one of the greatest and most individualistic composers of all time.

.

[Happy Tree Friend]

@Angelo Clematide said:

Today, or since 160 years we compose modulation where any degree can be following by any degree in any tonaliy, here old tunings are completely useless, can not be used. For example the piano piece “Two To The Power Of 88” from 1982 moves thru 66 tonalities withhin 70 bars. Basically all european music composed in the last 160 years is based on equal temperament.

Hi Angelo,
i dont know how clearly you understood my posting...
Hermode Tuning is not a fix tuning, but one, that corrects the intonation in relation to what you play, so you can modulate how much you want, even 600 times per minute, though i wouldnt recommend that. [[;)]]

that newer music is based on equal temperament is one thing, that good musicians intonate depending on the musical context is another one, even if the music itself is atonal or has a more complex tonality.

No violin player would play for example the Berg Violin Concerto in a numb tempered manner, at least no good one - although its written within a 12tone technique.


The other thing, ethnical or unconventional tuning systems:

The fact, that you personally don't appreciate them with european standard instruments shouldn't be an argument, if they cant be used in a senseful way or not.
A big part of newer compositions uses microtonality in one or another way, also with traditional instruments; ecmelic music the same as spectral music for example.
If you Google, you can find a lot of interesting links to those kinds of music.

Alternative tunings allow to create _fresh_ but nice sounding uncommon textures.

Best:
HTF

[Angelo Clematide]

Aha... i see. Sounds a bit like what orchestra player doing anyway, constantly adjusting the purity of chords at given moment, when fixed tuned instrument are absent.

I was reading this pdf in the mean time:
http://eceserv0.ece.wisc.edu/~sethares/paperspdf/hermode.pdf

The system seems to make sense when you use the Chord Definition only, but not when adding all Chord Options (b9 9 #9 11 #11 b13 13 b15), as i do most often. As it says in the paper "it would sounds not better, but different". But it seems that Mozart could sound quite good thru Harmode System!

Would you like to have the Hermode System implied on the commercial available sequencers, making it capable of the Hermode Tuning system running in the background while you play?

You have a website where i can listen to Hermode processed examples?

Of course i appreciate music from all "ethnies" !!! But would force Hermode a arab intonation with half and one-and-a-half shaps etc.?

.

[Beat Kaufmann]

@Happy Tree Friend said:

After some weeks of working with the VIs, i have to say that working with the VIs is a new dimension in sound and handling.
There is only one thing which is a huge minus: the fact that the VIs can only play in a perfect tempered tuning, which is maybe the only one thats definitly never used by real orchestral musicians (with few exceptional instruments)...
HTF

Hi Happy Tree Friend
Unfortunately it seems to be that you are not very happy tree at the moment.
I hope that I can help you.
First of all you have the possibility to change the master tune in general.
440Hz +/- 20Hz. That's for adapt your instrument for other
instruments. In other words it is a "static" detune possibility.

http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/VSL_New_Violin/Vienna-Pitch1.gif">

Further on you have the Pitchbend Range figures for another detune
possibility. On the upper picture you are able to set the range of it.
The picture's case shows the maximum of 200%. 100% is +/- a half tone.

The solution for you:
Click on "Map Control". Now it appears the following screen:


It is up to you to assign a midi controller to this parameter
"Pitch Bend".
Now you are able to control the VI-tone in its frequency
(max +/- 2 half tones)

Baroque-feeling
So if you want to play in the baroque-tuning (415Hz > 440Hz - 1 half tone)
set the pitch bend range on 100. After that set the assigned CC-controller
to zero and voilà...

Human-feeling
Vary the assigned Pitch-Bend-Midi CC-controller with a
midi - random function of your host software (Cubase etc.). I've not
tried it but this sould work as well. Perhaps it is possible to trigger
the random function with every tone. So every tone will be played
with another "fault" in its frequency range... [:D] ... [[:|]]

All the best
Beat Kaufmann

[Happy Tree Friend]

Hi Beat,
unfortunately i dont think that its the same with random -mide effects in Logic as in Cubase.

But as i've written: thats simple a must...
Its for me still a reason to use the EXS24 versions in some cases.

Either, thats not the job of a pitch wheel, which should be used for "regular" detunings.

A constant detuning is not really the thing i'm looking for.
BTW: in reality there has never been such a thing like "the" baroque tuning...
(in contrary to that, chinese musique has non a constant tuning tone already thousands of years ago.
But anyhow: i still prefer 440 for me, otherwise my ears start to dislike the party...

But anyhow, thanks for your suggestions!


What i think is, that the real way has to be that one, that Vienna Instruments allow not only user specified tunings, but also the automation of the root note.

Like Angelo has written, special tunings that work just in one or two keys aren't ideal...


Well, i hope there will be more time for that topic in future!!!

Listening to the mussorgsky Demo once more (MIR Demo-Movie) the importance of my suggestions hit my head once more very drastically, since i know, Ravel has neither used Synths nor Synthorgans in that score!!! [[;)]]

Its a pity doing that great work and forgetting the basic principles of intonation in an orchestra....

Greets:
HTF