@Tripit said:

[...] You can mic them a million different ways and create surround images. Try finding that in VSL. [...]

-> http://vsl.co.at/en-us/65/71/175.vsl , "Pictures at an Exhibition" - D/L the wma-files, they are pure 5.1 [;)]

Very cool, thanks for the link.

Tripit

I stated in the previous post that Blade Runner was not samples. Vangelis is famous for his use of analog synth. You don't read very carefully do you?

I brought up Blade Runner because it was an example of an electronically generated sound that completely and successfully REPLACED an orchestra and was in fact superior to it - in fact, when an orchestra tried to compete with it. That is very much related to this discussion.

You're welcome to your opinions on samples, but don't assume the limitations of musical expression you experience are universal. I view sampling as a revolution that allows a composer access to sounds that can be used as a pure art form, and an enormous leap in musical expression.

You view it as an inferior substitute for a live orchestra. That to me is a severely limited way of thinking.

deleted by the obnoxious drunk who wrote it

Dear William, PLEASE try to stay polite. Don't start to threaten people verbally.

Thanks!

My apologies, I didn't mean to be threatening. I get too caught up in all of this stuff. I should really just shut up and do music.

No worries William. Just so you know, I use samples every single day and make the majority of my living with them. The advances in sampling has changed our way of doing music like nothing else. I appricate companies like VSL very much. If anything, I wish for more and better. I have strong opinions about how well samples can be used to directly replace the instruments they are designed to replace. My opinion is just that, my opinion. It is shared a by others, and it's also not shared by others. I don't mind difference in opinion, just as I don't mind difference in compositional style. I don't post here to effect a personal attack on anyone. I don't post very often either, mostly because I'm just to busy to follow threads regularly. I do post my opinions on occassion when I have time and something catches my attention.
Our differences are probably not as diverse as they may seem. I'm sure we share many of the same opinions as well.
Peace.

@William said:

My apologies, I didn't mean to be threatening. I get too caught up in all of this stuff. I should really just shut up and do music.

No, no no, you are part of the entertainment value of this forum. As Billy Joel sang "Don't go changing" [:D]

I'm glad to see that some people sill have a passion for music; I remember going to music college and being shocked at the general lack of interest in what we were all trying to do.

DG

DG,

Ha! So true.

That is exactly why I would gravitate toward the antagonistic professors; others despised them but I loved that I could always get honest (and provocative) feedback.

Clark

Ahhhh..there is already plenty of drama on this forum.

@Lee Blaske said:

Sometimes I also wonder how much longer orchestral music will be prominently featured in important films. These days, it seems like the "score" in a lot of movies is just the glue between the pop tunes. How long before orchestral music is viewed as a tired cliche? You don't see many young people at orchestra concerts these days. Orchestral music is increasingly not something that the up and coming generation relates to.

Lee Blaske

Orchestras have been going in and out of fashion for years. Remember that electronic scores were 'the thing' for the good part of a decade until John Williams unleashed the Star Wars music on us and orchestras came into fashion again.

VSL and other sample-based software does, as was pointed out, allow us composers to have our work heard when we write it. How many of you would be able to show examples of your talents if you had to rely on an orchestra picking up your score? If you can create a buzz with your VSL performed symphony, you may end up with it being played live too.

It also allows those independent filmmakers who don't have budgets to hire an orchestra to record their scores. If you can give someone the experience of orchestral music, then whether you are using samples or not, you're effectively promoting orchestral music.

There are problems currently in the UK where theatre companies are using this new maching called "Symphonia" (or something like that) to play the music in shows. But the unions are getting the performances stopped, unless the company can justify not using a live orchestra (e.g theatre size or costs). After all, if they are using machines, the arts councils aren't going to fund them because they're not fully supporting the arts.

I think any scare as to what is happening with samples over live is kind of something and nothing. Composers write orchestral music because of their love of the orchestra and the sound and the experience of having a live orchestra in a concert hall bashing out yout music. If someone said to you that everything you wrote would only be played by computer, how many times are you going to let them hire you?

Since what I write is so often offensive, I am bowing out of here. I view music as a very positive thing in a world filled with negatives and have myself been too negative here on this Forum.

Thanks for the interesting viewpoints and arguments. I am not really cut out for talking about music since I get irritated when I disagree with something, and instantly write something irritating or even offensive, though I don't really mean to be. Anyone I've offended, please understand, I am an extremely mellow, non-violent, peaceful and even meditative person who simply gets carried away with a keyboard (musical or type) in front of him. I just need to actually compose or arrange and not talk about it, since none of that has nothing to do with the reality of music which is an individual, personal experience that can tear you up inside, or take you to the highest elevation a human can achieve. Also, it is non-intellectual and cannot be expressed in words. I actually believe one shouldn't talk about these things. They are extremely individual, and others cannot truly understand where you are coming from.

Anyway, I congratulate all the fine composers here, and wish you all the very best in art, music, not to mention money-making! The people here on this Forum deserve it. They comprise some of the best talent in the world. I have been amazed at the skill and artistry that is seen normally here. Keep up the great work!

William come back

I think all is said is true and what and money does get.

Please may one point out again that we are talking about scoring and employment for motiion pictures more than anything else. So may I ask all oncee again. How many people would even make an issue of real verses samples, if beethoven's concerto gets composed by beethoven today and scored with VSL. I've had professors show me their symphonies and point out that they used haydn's piano solo for their own and wrote it backwards. Please is it of no wonder that man has to do what he has to do to stay employed because simply there is no time , or else there is somone else to take ones place or job. before computers and samples and machines were in use, I mentioned in hollywood that why don't composers write their own scores as opposed to borrowing from chakosvsky's or revel's ect..., A flurry of anger was unleashed towards me. A movie has to wrap in time. And everything else is irrelevant. Have you noticed delius's music sounds alot like girshwin's, when gershwin was in hollywood. Although I have a tremendous respect to one of the best pianist and american songbook writers ever.

What about politics, thats another issue. Here where I live they never show the orchestra and its educational value, they always advertize a footstompin musician who is connected with down home roots that is controling the orchestra. thats reality.

So please be humble, Society is its fabric in multitude. And what you put in to it. It can be heard and evaluated as well as be effecting in more ways that one.



Just a thought: a live orchestra musician is an impecably effective sensual live EQ
continuously blending with the others in live mode.

Now I'm going back to work and put my energy in my compositions for a while.
Thanks for listening.

Wow! Since my initital post of this thread I have been following everyone's post and replies. It has been with impressive admiration of everyone's passion about this issue that this thread has turned into....samples vs live orchestra, film budgets, etc. I admit that I would even become a bit frustrated at times reading some of the replies thinking "how could anyone not see the advantage of having a great tool such as this?" But it's the passion that has been displayed that actually let's me know that we are all really on the same page.

Coming from different parts of the world, different styles, educational backgrounds, different career levels, different passions even, that makes what we do so special. We affect the world around us...maybe in a small way or in a way that masses will be affected. But no matter what and how we contribute, no matter what we write, no matter how we do it (with samples or live musicians) we are creating...how much more could any of us ask for. We have all been given a gift that many would give all they have to be able to do. For me, that's what we should never lose sight of!

As for the film...I'm on reel 3 of 5 and all is going great...the director loves being able to hear full cues....and yes, the dreaded "I love that, but can we....." is even bearable! [:D]

Wish I could post some cues, but from a contractual standpoint I'm prohibited. But hopefully sometime before the release I'll be able to do so for anyone interested.

Thanks again to all who share in this forum!

Hey Dietz!

just wanted to let you know that the score was completed a couple of days ago and the film is in mix as we speak in Toronto at Deluxe (www.bydeluxe.com).

VSL performed beautifully!! Although I have to admit that I still believe it may be a bit easier using live orchestra. But I also have to say that I'll be interested in seeing if my attitude changes once I upgrade to the Cube. It looks more intuitive than the "multiple aticulations" and preformance tools that we are currently using.

Aside from VSL, I used live soloist (Violin, Cello, Trumpet & Flugel) on a few of the cues and then ambient sounds from the "Twisted Textures" collection and QL Symphonic Choirs.

I do love the end result...and so does the director. Please tell Herb and the "crew" I said "Thank You" for allowing us to compete in this market place.

I've got permission to post 3 of the cues so feel free to take a listen.
http://www.rpmusic.com/DogDays.html I'll keep you posted on a release date.

Regards,

Lee: can anyone else say jealous bee hatch?

Fantastic Rob and congradulations. I am curious as to which VSL libraries you used? Thanks!
Chris

Thanks Chris...very kind of you to say.

I have the Pro Edition, Epic Horns and French Oboe. Also, I can't say enough about the Ernest Cholakis IR's. They are absolutely in a different league...as you can hear on the cues...just fantastic!!! Best purchase (besides VSL) that I've made. THey really just made my set-ups sound completely different than what I had been use to. Hats off to Cholakis! (That is, until MIR is available!!!!)

Rob...tracks 2 and 3 are garbled. So far track 1 sounds incredible.
Chris

Hmmm....you might have to give a bit of time to let it load in. I tested it and it works fine. Try it again and keep me posted.

Thanks for checking!