Question regarding EQ/muddyness

[dummy]

Hi all, hope everyone's well.

I just have a quick question regarding mixing/eq and VSL. I currently own the VSL Orchestral Cube with the performance set and have been using it a few months now. However, I find it very hard not to end up with a 'muddy' sounding final mix (when listening through monitors, headphones and especially budget speaks in tvs/stereos). I've compiled a minute long mp3 with examples of what I mean, which can be grabbed from here: muddy.mp3.

From what I've picked up on chat/forums/etc, I believe I shouldn't have to do much tweaking with EQ with big budget libraries such as VSL (and most generally advice doing as little as possible), so I wanted to ask everyone's opinion. Listening to my compositions, is there anything obvious that I'm doing wrong to get this muffled/muddy sound? For example, am I using pf/ff notes incorrectly? Am I mixing instrument volumes too loud/quiet? Is it a limitation of the samples or Gigastudio itself? Am I just imagining it or being overly critical of it?

I know pretty much nothing when it comes to post production and mixing and this problem is one that's driving me nuts (I'm pretty much a perfectionish and struggle to get a sound I'm happy with on my music). I also feel that it gives my stuff a slight amateurish sound and really want to figure out why it happens, and how I can avoid/fix it. Thanks in advance for any help that you can give me.

[Beat Kaufmann]

@dummy said:

...I know pretty much nothing when it comes to post production and mixing and this problem is one that's driving me nuts (I'm pretty much a perfectionish and struggle to get a sound I'm happy with on my music). I also feel that it gives my stuff a slight amateurish sound and really want to figure out why it happens, and how I can avoid/fix it. Thanks in advance for any help that you can give me.

Hi dummy
Perhaps this tutorials will help to bring your mixes a step closer the reality.

http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/tipspcmusic/vslgeneral/index.php#53248296e303b6503
or
http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/tipspcmusic/howtousevslaudio/index.php#50946996180042f2e (step3 - step[H]
and
http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/tipspcmusic/vslacoustics/index.php

I hope these links help a little... ?

All the best
Beat Kaufmann

[Dietz]

@dummy said:

[...] From what I've picked up on chat/forums/etc, I believe I shouldn't have to do much tweaking with EQ with big budget libraries such as VSL (and most generally advice doing as little as possible), so I wanted to ask everyone's opinion. [...]

You're asking for opinions, here is mine [:)]

I think the advice on the chats and forums you got is only partly correct. It is true that you shouldn't need much processing to get rid of any acoustic "garbage", so to speak. But you _will_ have to use certain tools to fit your aesthetic vision - be it just arrangement decisions or soundchanges during mixdown.

A crude comparison: Imagine to ask a painter to make pictures only in pure red, blue and yellow. Of course this _may_ be interesting to some extent, but I think we agree that more artistic freedom lies in the area in between the monochrome colours.

Personally, I think one of the major strengths of our library is that our users _are_ able to tweak instruments soundwise, without the risk of running out of options. Everybody who says that there is "the one" and only orchestral sound is simply wrong. Sound is a multi-variate entity; not one solution will perfectly fit another situation.

So managing sound is part of the artistic process as is inventing melodies, hamonic and rhythmic structures, or creating complex arrangements. To tell somebody that you "shouldn't tweak" sound means only to give away a huge potential of musical expression.

... just my opinion! [;)]

[dummy]

Thanks for everyone's comments and suggestions. I have briefly skimmed over those tutorials provided and they look very helpful, so I'll go through them in detail once I've woken up [:D]. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Dietz. It's good to know that not everyone has the opinion that EQ is bad and should be avoided, as I've found it useful in the past for getting specific moods/styles.

Regarding the music I posted, is the muddyness I mentioned part of the acoustic garbage that I need to remove by tweaking bass/treble with EQ? or is it more down to the way I'm using the VSL samples. I'm just at a loss of where to start in fixing the problem. I've tried the EQ approach, but cannot get the results I'd like without considerably boosting trebles and reducing bass.

[Beat Kaufmann]

@dummy said:

Regarding the music I posted, is the muddyness I mentioned part of the acoustic garbage that I need to remove by tweaking bass/treble with EQ? ....

Hi dummy
Unfortunately we listen to finalmixes with our brain. In there we have our
ideas, experiences, feelings and so on.
On one hand you think your mixes are muddy...
and on the other hand: Nobody apart from you does know what you are
expecting exactly. So it is not possible to say take an EQ, increase the
gain + 3.1dB at 3,2kHz and voilà...

It seems to me that you are stressed a little and that you have lost
patience a bit. Because of that: Here are some possibilities which can
quickly cool down... [:D]

Create a roomfeeling for your instruments
You know the panning-procedure to get left and right placed instruments.
But it also helps to create different depths for instruments.
Listen to this example
-solo violin in front
-strings farther away
-winds behind the strings
roomfeeling

More ambiance less reverb
As you noticed perhaps I used more Ambiance than Reverb. That is an
other possibility to reduce acoustic garbage.

EQ-ing I
The best EQ-ing is "no EQ-ing". Try to orchestrate your compositions in a
way that every used instrument has "the room" for its frequencies. Of course it
is possible to enhance a melody with lots of instrumets which are playing in
the same league (Celli, Bassi, Horns, Tubas etc.)
If you orchestrate "airy" and light you will be able to create muddy
parts too - if they are necessary.

EQ-ing II
Use the EQ to creat "frequency rooms" for instruments which are playing in similar frequency ranges...
Have a look to this part of a tutorial
http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/tipspcmusic/vslacoustics/index.php#53248296fa00fa520

EQ-ing III
Farther instruments sound darker (with less overtones). Closer instruments
sound clear.
Example: http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/downloads/audiodirectindirectdepth.mp3
So reduce the highest frequencies of the farest place instruments.

EQ-ing IV
Cut low frequencies of the reverb signal (try it out ... below 200Hz?).
It could be a main problem in cases of muddy sounds. In addition to
this measure:

Reverb time
Try to reduce the reverb time (2 - 3 s is ok).


All the best
Beat Kaufmann

[dummy]

Thanks for all the links and help! I'm sure they will prove invaluable in helping me get the sound I want. I think that it's also possible that I am just being overly paranoid regarding my music and am being my own worst critic, which is partly the reason I posted here.

Many thanks again for everyone's input!

[julian]

Hi,

I had a listen to the mp3 and it does exhibit to a certain extent a characteristic "sucking out sound" between certain notes or phrases. This is an artifact that I'm sure a large majority of experienced sample users will have encountered.

Beat with his skilled crafted approach through orchestration placement etc is avoiding the problem but I believe it is still an commonly encountered issue. It may be an acoustic thing that when an orchestra section changes chords notes every person will be doing it at a slghtly different time. With a sample library to make it work efficiently/accurately these timing differences will not be so evident.

If you start to listen out for the "sucking artifact" you can hear it in quite a number of otherwise well crafted sample compositions. I hope I'm not shot down in flames here but after listening to the VSL Mussorgsky, which considering was a sample performance was magical, but still left me with a feeling of the music being "sucked back into the box" during a few instances.

Going back to your mp3 example again it might just be worth you having a minor tweek with some of the release timings on the instruments - the further you go from the factory settings the further from the optimum setting for the instrument but in an ensemble context it may provde a less muddy sound at times. Try it and see, and also look at the actual patches of each orchestral instrument you are using, but I think you will find great advice right across this forum and remember the demos you are hearing from VSL are being produced by high level experts in the art of coaxing a vibrant realistic performance out of the worlds most advanced sample library.

Julian