@William said:

Though perhaps this type of scripting engine can be generically applicable to all your old libraries. That would be nice - putting all that painful expense to new use instead of dead storage.

That is the key issue. Period.

@cleriensis said:

congratulations to VSL and to Thomas.
cleriensis.

For what?

[*-)] [*-)] [*-)]

@William said:

Yes Rob, that was what I was thinking. The concept of Synful is taking really basic samples - NOTHING like the awesome complexity of VSL - and coming close to making them sound o.k. That is a huge leap when you consider how much is done with tweaking. Very involved and complex, but still basically tweaking. So if you could take something as good as VSL and mold it similarly the mind boggles at the possibilities. VI uses this general principle at the instrument level, and will certainly use it at the sample level soon. Though perhaps this type of scripting engine can be generically applicable to all your old libraries. That would be nice - putting all that painful expense to new use instead of dead storage.

Laurent, I have listened to Sonic Implant and they are not better than VSL at all. You're hearing some real nice mixes. Of course I wouldn't protest too loudly if someone presented that library to me for free. [[[;)]]]

Herb,

You have been noticably absent from this discussion. What is your take on 'future possibilities' within the new VI to get some of the results as shown by Thomas and his wonderful K2 scripting?

Obviously, I am not asking for details that could hamper your competitive edge - just that you are working on something similar. As I write this, I think - yes, of course you are working on this. You guys have proven time and time again to 'lead the pack'. Anything to make your samples 'live and breath' even more is certainly something you would be most interested in.

...But, having said that, a word or two from you on this topic would be appreciated - at least by me [[[;)]]] .


Rob

I'm sorry, busy finishing the stuff for replication.

In short: the Vienna Instruments do not need a scripting solution for simulating intervall connections, because we have real performed intervalls.

But what's possible now with the "internal scripting possibilities" of the VIs is to connect the intervall sample- nippets with any normal single note sustains. Especially for string ensembles this works very well. So there will be for a example performance-legati using all four sustain velocity layers.

I plan to use this possibilities extensively with our upcoming "epic string" recordings. It will be possible to have intervall legatos connected to multiple instances of different sustain articulation. For example different vibrato intensities, ensemble in tune, sligthly out of tune etc.

If this works well and is worth the effort, it will be easy to offer also free updates for the existing strings sections with similiar multiple expressive sustain instances.

best
Herb

Is the demo of TJ really a sample library? I cannot imagine... It sounds too real and alive.
TJ should give us an answer, please. Anyway - VSL will be able to achieve even better quality, diverse sounds of strings. They can and will do it for sure.
Herb - you are doing a great job! PLease make those strings "feel alive"...


Matt

@herb said:

I'm sorry, busy finishing the stuff for replication.

In short: the Vienna Instruments do not need a scripting solution for simulating intervall connections, because we have real performed intervalls.

But what's possible now with the "internal scripting possibilities" of the VIs is to connect the intervall sample- nippets with any normal single note sustains. Especially for string ensembles this works very well. So there will be for a example performance-legati using all four sustain velocity layers.

I plan to use this possibilities extensively with our upcoming "epic string" recordings. It will be possible to have intervall legatos connected to multiple instances of different sustain articulation. For example different vibrato intensities, ensemble in tune, sligthly out of tune etc.

If this works well and is worth the effort, it will be easy to offer also free updates for the existing strings sections with similiar multiple expressive sustain instances.

best
Herb

Very cool Herb. This will greatly help our request for more dynamic expression - without a nearly as much tweaking / programming.

Thanks for the update. Really looking forward to recieving the first half of VI.

Rob


Rob

@William said:

[...] Though perhaps this type of scripting engine can be generically applicable to all your old libraries. That would be nice - putting all that painful expense to new use instead of dead storage. [...]

William, the key to all those new VI-features that just seem to be "some clever scripting" is the fact that the Vienna Symphonic Library has the _content_, waiting to be used.

As you may know by now, there is quite a lot of new samples integrated into the VIs; without this huge amount of newly recorded (or at least completely re-edited) audio, applying some clever key-switching or the like doesn't make much sense --- where should we switch to?

While so many attempts are being made to mimic our way of doing things, the major drawback behind all those seemingly competing concepts is swamped out a bit: The samples needed for these tricks are missing.

This is maybe not what everybody wants to hear, sorry ...

Hi Dietz - what we really want to hear is when in Jan you chaps think the first VIs will ship..... [[;)]]

Not that I'm impatient or anything....

@Another User said:

I'm sorry, busy finishing the stuff for replication. [...]

Sounds good, doesn't it?

@herb said:

I'm sorry, busy finishing the stuff for replication.

In short: the Vienna Instruments do not need a scripting solution for simulating intervall connections, because we have real performed intervalls.

But what's possible now with the "internal scripting possibilities" of the VIs is to connect the intervall sample- nippets with any normal single note sustains. Especially for string ensembles this works very well. So there will be for a example performance-legati using all four sustain velocity layers.

I plan to use this possibilities extensively with our upcoming "epic string" recordings. It will be possible to have intervall legatos connected to multiple instances of different sustain articulation. For example different vibrato intensities, ensemble in tune, sligthly out of tune etc.

If this works well and is worth the effort, it will be easy to offer also free updates for the existing strings sections with similiar multiple expressive sustain instances.

best
Herb

Very promissing, thanks these efforts

It's really all about vibrato and natural imperfections. VSL's samples are perfect to the point where they lack life. That's not a problem for the winds and especially the percussion work very well, but the strings are very hard to get sounding right. Where is the vibrato? Where are the fortissimo dynamics? I hope the Epic Violins will have the sound we are after and I also hope that atleast Epic Cellos (Celli?) will be made. I'm not going to get it as a bonus as I can't afford the full VI so I also hope that they will be sold separately. [[;)]]

Dietz, that is basically the way I've always understood it. If you don't have the basic sound, no amount of screwing around will make it sound good. Also, as Herb suggested, if you record actual legato intervals, why fake them? Well, I suppose you could like synful, and then use an old sample library that had a good sound otherwise.

Though basically I don't believe it! Or I will believe it when I hear it! Something far beyond a tiny demo like this one, which I am not even certain of how it was produced because the people who did it are trying their hardest to be mysterious and sexy. I am not impressed.

Though even if this succeeds, it will still be a fake. I do believe in actually recording these sounds, as VSL does, then automating the use of them as in VI. Suppose someone creates an incredibly good faked legato, with harmonics and formants and all the associated acoustical elements correctly offset and shifted, etc. Someone else will still come along, and incorporate a true legato later on. And then what good is the fake? All of these musical elements are pre-existent and unchanging truths, such as the timbre of a ponticello violin tremolo. But all these technical reproductions are shifting, ephemeral, and simply a matter of data. So whoever is most true to the musical elements, will win in the end.

@Another User said:

cleriensis wrote:
congratulations to VSL and to Thomas.
cleriensis.

PaulR wrote:
For what?

it seems to me that this famous epic string is a future bank of VSL.....and Thomas is the composer of this extract ??? no ??, sorry but i am french and my english is not very good....

sorry if i have wrong...

cleriensis

Bonjour cleriensis,

Malheureusement le demo que vous voyez voici de la collection privée de Thomas ce n'est pas VSL.

désolé

Tim

@cleriensis said:

sorry but i am french and my english is not very good....

Well that's a funny stuff only French write.
There were once some threads about this silly sentense.

"Sorry but I'm French"

There are toon of non-native english here, with a different English level, so unless you want to emigrate to another country, please just say what you have to say.
[H]

@William said:

Suppose someone creates an incredibly good faked legato, with harmonics and formants and all the associated acoustical elements correctly offset and shifted, etc. Someone else will still come along, and incorporate a true legato later on. And then what good is the fake?

This matter isn't black and white. The legato scripts have several advantages that the "real" sampled legato doesn't have.

The synthesized "fake" legato doesn't need more memory. The VSL legato instruments take a terrible amount of memory and with 32 bit computers you can't load very many of them. In a basic orchestral setup I run out of memory very fast but I have plenty of processing power left. Using synthesized legato would take some of the free processing power and give me a lot of memory space to load more instruments and articulations.

The synthesized legato can be added to any sample library afterwards. I wouldn't mind having scripted legato for EWQL RA or scripted VSL legato supporting all available dynamic layers. Herb just said that they are trying to use the available legato samples in four layer VI patches but that will take a lot more memory and it won't help the users without the new VI versions.

The synthesized legato is cheaper to do as there isn't need to record, edit and program all those legato samples. That should mean that libraries with synthesized legato can be sold cheaper and still make more profit for the producer.

The VSL sampled legato works very well with woodwinds and brass but not so well with strings. Most likely I'll start using a script with my VSL strings as soon as there is one available. I don't assume that the VSL woodwinds would sound any better with a script, most likely it's the other way around.

Of course there are disadvantages as well. You'll need Kontakt 2 which might or might not be a problem. For me it's my preferred sampler because of VSL's sampled legato scripts and a couple of nice pianos. There also might be some licencing costs or other issues if the script isn't written by the producer. And certainly the scripted legato can sound fake.

Most likely there are more pros and cons but these were the first to come to my mind.

Janila, well put.

@William said:

...If I am wrong about this, go ahead, correct me but I believe all this desperate desire for these samples is misplaced. It is not in the samples. You already have better samples. It is how they are used. I found that somewhat irritating, about the solo cello - the VSL solo cello is in no way inferior to this one. It is in the useage, not the samples.

William, I think a lot of people are disappointed with the samples, which is why Herb is doing the "Epic Violins".

Janila - good post.

I will go further.

Its_not_just_about_legato. This is what really gets me with all these posts and talk about samples. Legato works perfectly well at the moment with the old-style VSL library. Legato is important - yes, especially with strings. But all that is nothing if you don't have the TONE in the first place. It's the bloody TONE that's important.

Another as important, if not more so aspect of SOUND and TONE, is repetition. K2 scripting will surely be able to cope with that too. Writing in terms of SOUND and TONE is severely hampered without a workable repetition tool. Especially in the strings and brass. Two things happen when this is not available. (a) you waste inordinate amounts of time and (b) you give up and start writing to samples that are easiest to use. Don't anyone EVEN think about denying (b) because I hear it all the time in demos for every library, my own especially.

I'm sorry Bill, but the VSL cello and every other commercial sample library cello out there, is in every way inferior to the Bergenson one. It matters not about usage - it's the TONE.

I don't know how many more times this needs to be spelt out. All these tools are of no consequence whatsoever without the basic starting point of sound. TONE.

.....:it's the TONE.
....seems it's hard to understand. [H]

There is no arguing of how important TONE is. As good as the original HO's are - they pale in comparison to the newer Epic Horns. AND it is not just that there is twice the players. It's the tone of the Epic HO library that makes it just so good. In fact, I am certain that most would agree that the Epic Horns are the most 'alive' sounding library available from VSL.

I have the feeling that this library was labored over. Just my $.02.

Rob