I hear you Bruce. It does change the way we look at samples and just 'settling' for what is commercially available.

I am not a tweak head - but without this type of sound and control offered from the major developers I may just be motivated to become one.

I think the new VI is working towards this same objective - it is just (in Thomas' demos) the obvious absence of the typcial string sample 'sterile, brittle' sound that is so darn noticable in just about every demo available. I wish I could articulate what it is about this sound other than it is 'alive'.

Herb and co. - I can imagine you have watched this thread and the one on NS. Care to comment? Your impression of what Thomas has been able to achieve with the 'scripting', tone of his samples?

Many thanks.

Rob

Thinking about Herb, it must be difficult to keep a direction without any doubt,
I'm dreaming about an inteligent VSL package that would be light, a few gigs, let say less than 100 gig, that would combine real samples and some script.
Maintaining focused on their goal is the must difficult, there may be a lot of different mind and opinion inside the VSL team, I imagine the reunion at night that are long but so exciting. Those guys are developping our tools and providing us the key to achieve our musical intentions.

@Laurent said:

100% custum ? could you tell us more ? did he record himself an entire string orchestra ? that would cost him a lot of money

Yes its 100% custom, yes and yes.

why does he not sell it? he is just selfish.

..or very smart ..or you're just jealous [:)] (j/k)

being selfish doesn't preclude being smart infact I think it implies he can make more money by having sole access to it.

@magates said:

being selfish doesn't preclude being smart infact I think it implies he can make more money by having sole access to it.

If you read through the thread on NS that started this whole discussion, you'll find, in pieces throughout several of his posts, Thomas' rationale. You can view the thread here: http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41116

He even addresses your feeling of his "selfishness," which is an assessment I don't personally echo. Still, give it a read before drawing conclusions.

@magates said:

why does he not sell it? he is just selfish.

How much would you pay? [:D]

You might also find that he has an agreement with the musicians not to make it a commercial product; I certainly do with some of my sounds that I used to use before VSL.

D

I think he said it in the NS thread - he's a composer. He develops these tools to aid HIS composition. Becoming a developer is another venture altogether. He could certainly make money with it, if he re-oriented his career. But if he feeds his passion without having to do that excrutiating task, why do it?

As has been said, it's the passion within (with the aid of some surgical scripting skills) that we're all reacting to. The best VSL demos demonstrate what someone with passion can do with world class tools. Thomas is no different. Right now, I just wanna hear more what he can do.

No one here seems to understand this is scripting of existing sounds. What was recorded might have been quite mediocre compared to VSL, which does things the most basic way - with a good sound from the ground up. This scripting allows an old limited sample library like x sample, or a private library of extremely small size to be used in a new way with all sorts of tweaks applied automatically, and probably adjustment of harmonics etc for realistic legato without pitch bend weirdness, etc.

If I am wrong about this, go ahead, correct me but I believe all this desperate desire for these samples is misplaced. It is not in the samples. You already have better samples. It is how they are used. I found that somewhat irritating, about the solo cello - the VSL solo cello is in no way inferior to this one. It is in the useage, not the samples.

Well Williams, I could'nt say I love every VSL instruments. If you listen to the Sonic Implant Strings, you'll be surprised how warm they are. This aspect is'nt already present in the VSL string sound. No warm soft sound, I can't use the bass instrument because it's too agressive. The solo violin vibrato is recorded as if the guy was playing naked in the North Pole. Beside that I Love a lot of other VSL instruments, it's just a question of different tast.

The VSL celo is not inferior, it's less usable.
A lot of us are into movie music and need some warmness.
I'm not a fan of the silent stage, because a recording stage is never silent.
As a conclusion I'm very happy of the VSL whole package that I bought, but more humanity and sensitivity would be very welcome.

Sensitivity

@Laurent said:

[...] I'm not a fan of the silent stage, because a recording stage is never silent. [...]

With all respect, Laurent - but you seem to have missed the idea behind our concept.

@William said:

No one here seems to understand this is scripting of existing sounds. What was recorded might have been quite mediocre compared to VSL, which does things the most basic way - with a good sound from the ground up. This scripting allows an old limited sample library like x sample, or a private library of extremely small size to be used in a new way with all sorts of tweaks applied automatically, and probably adjustment of harmonics etc for realistic legato without pitch bend weirdness, etc.

If I am wrong about this, go ahead, correct me but I believe all this desperate desire for these samples is misplaced. It is not in the samples. You already have better samples. It is how they are used. I found that somewhat irritating, about the solo cello - the VSL solo cello is in no way inferior to this one. It is in the useage, not the samples.

William - if you are right (and I believe you are on to something) - perhaps these scripting tweaks made with older samples could be in someway applied to the very well done VSL samples for even more playability (further VI updates perhaps)? [[;)]]

If it can be done in K2 - it should be able to be done in the new VI.

Laurent, I do tend to agree about the VSL solo violin vibrato being a tad on the nervous side. Be nice to be able to control rate and depth of vibrato.

Rob

@Another User said:

With all respect, Laurent - but you seem to have missed the idea behind our concept.

I'm with u on this Dietz, as I can easilly see the problems and limitations of having all sorts of reverb and ambience on the source samples. That being said, I am also missing the often mentioned "romantic" warm sound to the Vienna strings, something no amount of EQ, effects or writing chops will give me. That John Barry sound is just something I would die for, and would often be a better choice for film and contemperary music over the more "old-school", classical record sounding Vienna strings. Vienna nails the woodwinds and horns dead on, but the strings is just not there yet for me sound-wise. There it is again: I want meh Epic Strings library! [:D]

it's wonderfull.....we are not far of the perfection....and with a string orchestra it's very joyfull...congratulations to VSL and to Thomas.


cleriensis.

Yes Rob, that was what I was thinking. The concept of Synful is taking really basic samples - NOTHING like the awesome complexity of VSL - and coming close to making them sound o.k. That is a huge leap when you consider how much is done with tweaking. Very involved and complex, but still basically tweaking. So if you could take something as good as VSL and mold it similarly the mind boggles at the possibilities. VI uses this general principle at the instrument level, and will certainly use it at the sample level soon. Though perhaps this type of scripting engine can be generically applicable to all your old libraries. That would be nice - putting all that painful expense to new use instead of dead storage.

Laurent, I have listened to Sonic Implant and they are not better than VSL at all. You're hearing some real nice mixes. Of course I wouldn't protest too loudly if someone presented that library to me for free. [[;)]]

@William said:

Though perhaps this type of scripting engine can be generically applicable to all your old libraries. That would be nice - putting all that painful expense to new use instead of dead storage.

That is the key issue. Period.

@cleriensis said:

congratulations to VSL and to Thomas.
cleriensis.

For what?

[*-)] [*-)] [*-)]

@William said:

Yes Rob, that was what I was thinking. The concept of Synful is taking really basic samples - NOTHING like the awesome complexity of VSL - and coming close to making them sound o.k. That is a huge leap when you consider how much is done with tweaking. Very involved and complex, but still basically tweaking. So if you could take something as good as VSL and mold it similarly the mind boggles at the possibilities. VI uses this general principle at the instrument level, and will certainly use it at the sample level soon. Though perhaps this type of scripting engine can be generically applicable to all your old libraries. That would be nice - putting all that painful expense to new use instead of dead storage.

Laurent, I have listened to Sonic Implant and they are not better than VSL at all. You're hearing some real nice mixes. Of course I wouldn't protest too loudly if someone presented that library to me for free. [[[;)]]]

Herb,

You have been noticably absent from this discussion. What is your take on 'future possibilities' within the new VI to get some of the results as shown by Thomas and his wonderful K2 scripting?

Obviously, I am not asking for details that could hamper your competitive edge - just that you are working on something similar. As I write this, I think - yes, of course you are working on this. You guys have proven time and time again to 'lead the pack'. Anything to make your samples 'live and breath' even more is certainly something you would be most interested in.

...But, having said that, a word or two from you on this topic would be appreciated - at least by me [[[;)]]] .


Rob

I'm sorry, busy finishing the stuff for replication.

In short: the Vienna Instruments do not need a scripting solution for simulating intervall connections, because we have real performed intervalls.

But what's possible now with the "internal scripting possibilities" of the VIs is to connect the intervall sample- nippets with any normal single note sustains. Especially for string ensembles this works very well. So there will be for a example performance-legati using all four sustain velocity layers.

I plan to use this possibilities extensively with our upcoming "epic string" recordings. It will be possible to have intervall legatos connected to multiple instances of different sustain articulation. For example different vibrato intensities, ensemble in tune, sligthly out of tune etc.

If this works well and is worth the effort, it will be easy to offer also free updates for the existing strings sections with similiar multiple expressive sustain instances.

best
Herb