William-- I am without a doubt "legato happy"-- and more specifically "zigane" happy. I did listen very carefully to recorded performances and tried to emulate what I heard. It's likely that I went a bit overboard, but the vast majority of slides I used were in one form or another in the "real" recordings. But it's probable the real violinists technique was more sublte and varied than mine.

Joaz from Northern sounds posted a series of comments from his wife an accomplished violinist. I repost them here because I think they will be of interest to all.

@Joaz said:

Hi Jay
I ran it past my wife Azhaar, and these were her comments...
Good stuff
Progressive vibrato very good.
Great harmonics,She loved the bow noise.
Down Shifts,very lifelike.

A Tad Critical
Needs more variation of vibrato speed and intensity.

The upshifts all sound like one-finger shifts, whereas for big shifts, Violinist usually cross strings and change fingers.(I have no idea if that is possible with samples though)

A Little more bite on the downbows even in the mp-mf range.

She felt that the cresendo's were a little too fast as you do have to physically move the bow a long way to get a good crescendo.

Overall
She was impressed with the musicality of the whole performance. And liked the overall sound.

Unsurprisingly When it comes to Violin, she tends to be a harsher critic of sample performances, than live ones, and having been on the end of one of her critiques of some of my stuff, I can assure you, you got off lightly.

I would enjoy hearing the reactions of other violinists on this forum.

Best,
Jay

@JBacal said:

I would enjoy hearing the reactions of other violinists on this forum.
Best,
Jay

Trust me - you don't want to hear what the violinist sitting in this studio said, an hour ago.

I would be interested to hear any "thoughtful" opinion. The "lively" discussions sparked by some of my demos posted on various forums this week have toughened my hide considerably.

--Jay

gentlemen, since dietz' and my request taking back yourself haven't been succesfull you forced us to delete content with personal injuries (and posts citing them).

this went far beyond the limits we are willing to accept.

any further off-topic post except apologies (what would be appropriate IMO) in this thread will be deleted, any continuation in another thread will be stopped, any further violation of the netiquette will be followed by closing the respective thread or suspending the respective member from posting.

thank you for your attention, christian

[deleted]

Interesting would be an opinion, where the musician/violinist does not know that this was done with samples.
We've got interesting statements and harsh critics in the past (synthetic sounding, no one would play this like that, and so on) about real performed and recorded pieces, where we've said that it was done with samples.

best
Herb

@PaulR said:

[deleted]

OK fine - I don't post here anymore. Adios.

...

I would also love to hear the results of a "blind" test concerning samples vs. live as Herb mentioned. I remember one guy came on this forum briefly, and absolutely SAVAGED the performance by Andy B of Debussy, which is still probably the high water mark of artistic sample performance yet accomplished, though Jay and Beat have given some stiff competition for that honor recently. So it was obvious this guy - I forgot his name - was prejudiced, pure and simple, against the samples.

That is a great response you got Jay, from an experienced violinist - the harshest critic one would expect of a sampled violin solo. Amazing that you could accomplish that actually. So I guess the bowings are not a problem? The reason I brought this up in the first place is that I often wonder it about my own things - if I am violating what could, or would actually be done. Now of course it has been discussed how samples need not simply imitate what is possible, but somehow I cannot stand making a "bowing mistake" in my own performances.

Anyway, it's a great sounding demo!

so like if the idea is that Jay's performance could have theoretically been performed live (minus a few tweaks here and there) this is truly amazing. It's not perfect but it sounds like a real living violin. I didn't wince once. The violinist wife of one of the posters had great comments with which I agree but that hardly undoes this breathing animal you've brought to life.

I think the reason I used to hate solo violin samples (VSL included) is that it takes so much time to pick the right articulations and string it all together, hardly anyone actually does it. So we end up hearing frankenstein performances all the time. This tool seems to optimize the value of all the different articulations and transitions and USE them where appropriate so we actually get to hear phrases.

I still like Synful tho! [6] But having all this realtime without artifacts is quite a leap forward.

signed,
a really crappy violinist

Sorry folks- until we have real time control over the vibrato depth and rate this instrument is going to sound a little cheezie. Or could I describe this sound as HAL 9000 trying to emulate a violin? Remember the Emulator? We're getting there - just haven't quite arrived.

I really do miss my Mellotron. [6]

@herb said:

Interesting would be an opinion, where the musician/violinist does not know that this was done with samples.
We've got interesting statements and harsh critics in the past (synthetic sounding, no one would play this like that, and so on) about real performed and recorded pieces, where we've said that it was done with samples. best Herb

Herb this is completely true in my experience.
Not only in a library listening test but in every kind of audio test imaginable.
I have hosted microphone shootouts, studio monitor blind listenting tests, Pro Tools vs. analog tape, '56 strat vs '96 strat etc etc.

Peoples biasis and certainly their eyes influence their opinions.

Jay's 4 minute solo violin demo is the most possibly exposed kind of demo any lib could do.
Compliments are due on both the violin VI and certainly Jay's effort.

Thanks Craig and Jay for the info about the demos.

Herb wrote:

@Another User said:

We've got interesting statements and harsh critics in the past (synthetic sounding, no one would play this like that, and so on) about real performed and recorded pieces, where we've said that it was done with samples.

[:D]
A well-known pruducer friend used to make sure he had an empty fader or 2 on his desk when doing a mix. When the guys from the ad agency would say, "I'd like a bit more saxophone" or "take the piano down a bit" he'd move these blank faders. In every case, this appeared to "improve" the mix, because the agency guys were always happier afterwards!!

The power of the mind...

Regards - Colin

@Another User said:

We've got interesting statements and harsh critics in the past (synthetic sounding, no one would play this like that, and so on) about real performed and recorded pieces, where we've said that it was done with samples.

[:D]
A well-known pruducer friend used to make sure he had an empty fader or 2 on his desk when doing a mix. When the guys from the ad agency would say, "I'd like a bit more saxophone" or "take the piano down a bit" he'd move these blank faders. In every case, this appeared to "improve" the mix, because the agency guys were always happier afterwards!!

The power of the mind...

Regards - Colin

LOL -Thats a great story! [H]

We use to call that "Placebo Buttons". [6]

@musos said:

A well-known pruducer friend used to make sure he had an empty fader or 2 on his desk when doing a mix.

Now that's a very common trick in the live sound business...especially when doing FOH in small places. [[;)]] Works every time when people starts to complain or giving you some great "constructive criticism" after a couple of beers...

/Mattias

@Another User said:

We've got interesting statements and harsh critics in the past (synthetic sounding, no one would play this like that, and so on) about real performed and recorded pieces, where we've said that it was done with samples.

[:D]
A well-known pruducer friend used to make sure he had an empty fader or 2 on his desk when doing a mix. When the guys from the ad agency would say, "I'd like a bit more saxophone" or "take the piano down a bit" he'd move these blank faders. In every case, this appeared to "improve" the mix, because the agency guys were always happier afterwards!!

The power of the mind...

Regards - Colin


Great idea - I think I will have to use this one [:P]

Could it be possible to have a live solo violin demo with the Schindler's List and Danse Macabre ? (without orchestra)

[[;)]]

Wow; I go away for a couple of weeks and WW III breaks out [[:|]]

DG

@musos said:

A well-known pruducer friend used to make sure he had an empty fader or 2 on his desk when doing a mix. When the guys from the ad agency would say, "I'd like a bit more saxophone" or "take the piano down a bit" he'd move these blank faders. In every case, this appeared to "improve" the mix, because the agency guys were always happier afterwards!!

An amusing story, but certainly the mark of a very unprofessional producer. It really shows has a lack of respect, if not downright contempt for the people hiring him (i.e. he knows best, and the people employing him are idiots). Most likely, he won't last much longer in the biz. If his clients don't eventually discover what he's been doing and fire him, he'll most likely move on to some other career of his own volition. The people I've met with attitudes like this are very burned out with what they're doing, and need to get into a different line of work.

Lee Blaske