Don't you think a lower resale value would tend to force VSL to lower their prices in general? They would have to compete with their own products after all. I can't imagine a scenario where free markets create a bad pricing problem for the customer.

Admitedly, there could be an initial short term problem because of the change in policy, but in the long run prices will stabilize to the benefit of the users. But this short term spike would only occur if the prices are artificially elevated in the first place.

Markets are very efficient in determining value. The VIP program places all control of pricing with VSL to the detriment of the users.

@dbudde said:

Don't you think a lower resale value would tend to force VSL to lower their prices in general? They would have to compete with their own products after all. I can't imagine a scenario where free markets create a bad pricing problem for the customer.

Admitedly, there could be an initial short term problem because of the change in policy, but in the long run prices will stabilize to the benefit of the users. But this short term spike would only occur if the prices are artificially elevated in the first place.

Markets are very efficient in determining value. The VIP program places all control of pricing with VSL to the detriment of the users.

I think that there should be a re-sale policy, not with the existing instruments, but with the new VI. As it is dongle protected there would be no question of people being able to sell an "old" version and still keep a working version. I can't see that this would hurt sales, as the only people who would sell would be people who no longer wanted to use VSL products.

DG

@hendrkf said:

Even if you can't afford the SC (I am in that group, at least for now), how lucky the music world is to have a group of people with the passion and the ability to create a product like this.

I'm sure that the VSL folks appreciate praise like that. At the end of the day, however, they're going to want to move product (hopefully, a LOT of it).

At the very least, this will be an extremely interesting test of the market. As far as the cost of high end orchestral sample packages goes, VSL is now in a very different league from any of its competitors. Certainly, they will sell some copies, but how many? You can make the same amount of profit (possibly more) by selling more copies at a lower price. Now that this software will be copy protected, I think there's a greater chance that more copies could actually be sold before piracy and "sharing" cuts into profits.

One thing I do appreciate about VSL is that they maintain the value of the product better than some of the competitors. Sure, I think we all expect sales down the line, but VSL doesn't blow things out the way other manufacturers do. If you're an early adopter, it's distressing to see big fire sales on products not all that long after you paid top dollar (or top euro). I don't expect VSL to be doing any dramatic price cuts once this product is released. If they did, it would REALLY anger the people that already spent the money. At this point, I think the price structure on these new products is locked in, so no sense in quibbling about it or demanding a change in the price structure. It is what it is.

Initially, I was pretty gung-ho about this new product and was seriously considering picking it up. At this point, I have to admit that I'm waffling a bit. No doubt about it, the new VI is brilliant. I'm concerned though, that I'd be making a big investment, and sonically not be all that far from where I'm at right now in terms of meat and potatoes things that I use every day. In other words, I'd be able to use the library much better, but it would sound essentially the same. In the past, whenever I've spent a large amount of money, I expected to be knocked out with a stunning, brand new sound.

If I do do the upgrade, I'm in for the whole thing. With the VSL content I already own, it wouldn't make sense to just stop at the basic product. So, I'm personally looking at $6,055. I've never spent that much on a high end library before, much less spent that much on an upgrade to a very expensive library that I already own.

Since we are talking about the same sonics as the previous versions, I already know that in many situations, I prefer samples from other libraries I own (I'm fortunate to have a lot of libraries). Regardless of the improvements that the new VI will make, I most likely will continue to use a lot of those other samples. It's not that there's anything wrong with the VSL content. In a lot of situations, other samples just seem to work better for me. I also feel like I'm overloaded (and I'll bet there are others in the same boat). I've got a LOT of stuff now, and I don't feel as if I've adequately used what I already have. Heck, I've got the box of disks for the new upgrade to EWQLSO Platinum sitting right here, and I haven't gotten around to installing them yet. Buying all this stuff is one thing. Getting a handle on it and really making use out of it is another.

Another drawback of the new VI, for me, would be that it would put a crimp in how I'd really like to use it. I have two modes of operation in my studio. For a lot of simpler projects, I just stick with all the stuff in my GS (with Logic as the front end of a PT HD Accel system). When requirements are greater, I'll fire up my additional four PCs. Ideally, if I did the VSL VI update, I'd like to have everything on my G5, but then also have it split between the other PCs. It doesn't seem like I'll be able to do this.

Considering all the above, I'm grappling with whether I would really get $6,000+ worth of value out of this update. Would there be other ways for me to spend that much money that would bring a more marked improvement to my end product? The early bird organ offer is nice, but not everybody needs organ all that often (I bought the Notre Dame de Budapest library some time back, and have yet to have an opportunity to use it).

The VSL SC VI would be wonderful to have, but with every passing day, I seem to be growing cooler on the idea that I really need it (especially at that price). Time will tell. I know that at least for me, enticing special offers are a big motivator to buy. Otherwise, I often drag my feet. I'll bet that's true for a lot of us.

I know that I could just acquire part of it, but that doesn't seem as appealing. I believe that a lot of the folks who were in for the original edition and the Pro version of VSL would feel the same way. Psychologically, there's something appealing about buying the whole enchilada (it's what I've always done in the past for other big libraries). It's too bad that this time, we're looking at such an expensive enchilada upgrade during a period in the history of sampling where so many other companies are bringing out some very cost-effective enchiladas (and our stomaches are already quite full). [:D]

So at the moment, I'm torn about this. I wish that the SC upgrade was a more obvious slam dunk for me.

It would have been interesting to have been a bug on the wall of the VSL boardroom when discussions were taking place on how to package and market these products. I'll be they explored and toyed with a lot of alternate possibilities.

Lee Blaske

@Another User said:

Another drawback of the new VI, for me, would be that it would put a crimp in how I'd really like to use it. I have two modes of operation in my studio. For a lot of simpler projects, I just stick with all the stuff in my GS (with Logic as the front end of a PT HD Accel system). When requirements are greater, I'll fire up my additional four PCs. Ideally, if I did the VSL VI update, I'd like to have everything on my G5, but then also have it split between the other PCs. It doesn't seem like I'll be able to do this.
Lee Blaske

If you install all the samples on your G5 as well as the PCs then all you will have to transfer is the dongle. If you want to split up sections (not instruments) then just get another dongle.

DG

@Another User said:

I don't expect VSL to be doing any dramatic price cuts once this product is released. If they did, it would REALLY anger the people that already spent the money.

This kind of thinking always amazes me. If there are dramatic price cuts, that means prices are coming down for features I have or am about to get. No two ways about it. The bar has been raised yet again. Those who need to be on the bleeding edge and buy products when they are first announced will pay through the nose to get them. But if you can be patient for 6 months to a year, then you get all the benefits of lower prices.

Once you buy into a product like this, presumably you are in it for the long haul and lowered prices is only a good thing. Blowout prices are even better. You can pick up those extra samples you wavered on for so long because they now cost next to nothing.

If you pulled the trigger too soon and missed a big sale, well that's the price of progress. But to get upset over lowered or blowout prices makes no sense whatsoever.

@dbudde said:

f you pulled the trigger too soon and missed a big sale, well that's the price of progress. But to get upset over lowered or blowout prices makes no sense whatsoever.

That's not exactly what I was thinking about. I was thinking about a scenario where after the January 6 introductory deal deadline, VSL was concerned about how sales were going, and dropped the price significantly.

Lee Blaske

That's why you should never order in the first six months of a new product intro ... unless you are spending someone else's money.

I hesitate to get on these threads, but...

I think that if you do the math the upgrade is reasonable. This upgrade is not an apples to apples upgrade, and that affects the numbers.

The biggest issue I believe is VSL's wording of the new upgrade paths on this website. Tremendous misunderstandings could have been avoided if the language was cleaner, explaining the VIP path to the extended or full or whatever the heck they call it now. I mean, come on, the wording was "upgrade to the solo strings extended for only EU35!" Nothing was said that one had to purchase the standard set at that time. Or if it did it wasn't part of the tag line at Ilio or on the splash page of the VI here. One had to search further to find out that there was an extra purchasing step to the process. VERY misleading. If you don't believe me, just reread your forums.

What the advert SHOULD have said was "new VSL customers get the extended cube for 11,000 grand but VIP PE members get it for only 6,500!!"

Don't break the upgrade path in half like you have (standard full price THEN the extended upgrade). It's bull. I'll tell you why:

There isn't a PE owner out there that wants to upgrade to the standard VI cube. They would LOSE money. Especially when they pay pennies for the extended upgrade after that. All you had to do was say that PE VIP members were not eligible for a standard VI cube.

Of course people are going to be pissed. I was.

Clark

@DG said:

If you install all the samples on your G5 as well as the PCs then all you will have to transfer is the dongle. If you want to split up sections (not instruments) then just get another dongle.

It would end up being a lot of dongle juggling for me. If I bought the library, I'd split it between four dongles. If I wanted to work on my G5 alone, I'd have to move all four dongles from the PCs to the G5. Then, if I started a project small on the G5 and wanted to expand it, I'd have to print all those tracks if I wanted to fire up my four PCs.

I also like to leave my dongles in place, for stability's sake. Moving them around increases the chance of frying one or damaging the connector.

Lee Blaske

Too bad someone hasn't invented a dongle that is nework-based and could somehow validate that it is only used by a single user (e.g., authenticate machines that can use the dongle). This would alleviate many dongle headaches. As it is, I am very reluctant to go to any dongle based system. I finally got away from Logic and am completely dongleless at the moment.

And then there is the issue of those who are not at all excited about the closed samples with dongle method that is now in play...
I was very saddened when I learned of this.

All I ever wanted was even more samples/articulations.. [*-)]
And my support has been with VSL all along since they are the only ones who do orchestral sampling in a really seriuos way.
When I chose to purchase a VSL library, it wasn't like other purchases (such as.. choosing a brand of toilet paper.. [:D] ), it was more akin in feeling to making a contribution to an arts organization (local orchestra, or conservatory, etc.) because of the unique mentality behind this sampling project. It was (is!) something worth supporting, so that the project can continue and reach even new heights.

To date no one else is even trying in any seriously comparable way....

@Lee Blaske said:

At the end of the day, however, they're going to want to move product (hopefully, a LOT of it).

Speaking in general, I wouldn't be surprised seeing strong rebates on music software, next year.

Maybe I'm only wishfully thinking.

Time will tell.

[[;)]]

@Another User said:

Too bad someone hasn't invented a dongle that is nework-based

this is based on a license server software and exists since many years, it is used eg. by softimage and avid XSI. of course you have to purchase each network license seperately there and it is not always simple to get this stuff running, but if, it works actually cross-platform.
uinfortunately also it is cracked since years and therefore worthless to protect your investment ...
christian

...

@Another User said:

Another drawback of the new VI, for me, would be that it would put a crimp in how I'd really like to use it. I have two modes of operation in my studio. For a lot of simpler projects, I just stick with all the stuff in my GS (with Logic as the front end of a PT HD Accel system). When requirements are greater, I'll fire up my additional four PCs. Ideally, if I did the VSL VI update, I'd like to have everything on my G5, but then also have it split between the other PCs. It doesn't seem like I'll be able to do this.
Lee Blaske

If you install all the samples on your G5 as well as the PCs then all you will have to transfer is the dongle. If you want to split up sections (not instruments) then just get another dongle.

DG

Everything Lee said is valid AFAIC. Very good points.

The repetition is the really big thing here, because the current repetition tool is convoluted and I don't know anyone that ever gets their head around it so as to actually bother using it. That's disappointing because you would expect with that many gigs of samples dedicated to repetition, you should be able to use them properly. I only have First Edition and there are tons of repetition in that - so what it's like in Pro, heaven knows. So, at a big extra cost, repetition will now presumably work flawlessly and all those samples will be useful again - not especially happy about that though.

The problem with costing a thing like VI, is volume. It's not the same as selling pepsi cola. There is a limited market and unfortunately that is reflected in the cost.

The other interesting thing - selling on the license of the sample library. It maybe OK to do that once, but it could easily go from secondary markets, to tertiary and so on. No financial reward there for the development company. The only way that would work financially - based on the dongle method - would be for the parent company to charge an annual users fee.

But a lot of this boils down to piracy by the looks of it.

Just some thoughts.

@Another User said:

The other interesting thing - selling on the license of the sample library. It maybe OK to do that once, but it could easily go from secondary markets, to tertiary and so on. No financial reward there for the development company. The only way that would work financially - based on the dongle method - would be for the parent company to charge an annual users fee.

Disagree again. Secondary markets bring in more customers who eventually pay the originating company for upgrade fees and incremental product sales. Every new customer no matter how they initially became one is a cash cow for the company in the long term.

By the way, Martin says in the other thread, that VI license wil be transferrable under certain conditions.

@dbudde said:

I disagree. I can easily imagine a greater 10x increase in units sold if the price of SC were 1K instead of 10K. This would be more profitable both initially and longer term. And a larger customer base to begin with would mean more incremental business with upgrades.
Disagree again. Secondary markets bring in more customers who eventually pay the originating company for upgrade fees and incremental product sales. Every new customer no matter how they initially became one is a cash cow for the company in the long term.

By the way, Martin says in the other thread, that VI license wil be transferrable under certain conditions.

I thought about that - and you may be correct. Limited market though and there's always the possibilty of saturation. I don't know if I'd want to take that chance, business wise, given possible concerns with things like cash flow.

Yes, the dongle system will help with transfers - I didn't see that originally.

@PaulR said:

Limited market though and there's always the possibilty of saturation.

I wish the market was that limited. It seems that these days, the line of producer/composers competing for any significant job winds around the block. [[;)]]

Lee Blaske

I TOTALLY agree with you, Lee. Especially now, just ANYONE with a computer THINKS he/she is a composer. The market has gotten VERY clogged with that. At the end, though, the difference becomes obvious to the clients, but it SOOOOOOOOOO annoying!
There has been a lot of whinning about the VSL prices...
(PLEASE note: I don`t mean anybody in particullar. This is NOT an personal attack on anyone.) ...but, those people should just realize that perhaps this library is not targeted to them. This library is targeted to a group of people who can buy it with no problem at all, or reccoup their investment very soon, and/or people who has made enough money out of this library to buy it 40 times over. AND, those people usually don´t waste time bithching about prices. They`re busy working.

I actually like the fact that this library is a luxory. And a luxory, by definition, is not meant for every single body.
If I want to buy a great house in a REALLY nice neighborhood (VSL), but realize I can not afford it, I will not go whinning to the real estate company about the prices. They would tell me to buy one in a not-so-nice-neighborhood, somewhere where I can actually afford one (Garritan, The
quantum leap stuff, etc)
Yes, they could probablly have more sales if they lowered the prices, and therefore grow to a big company, etc, but who says that´s what they want/should do? Maybe they like keeping things not too big (as the size of the company) and being more personal... After all, a lot of times, nice things come in small packages... They will grow at their own pace, and their R & D will be, as it´s obviously been, a big priority.

People in this forum has been so rude and insulting to the VSL people that makes me go mad!"!We all should be lucky and thankfull that there are people on this world with such talent and passion that, becasue of their work, we can, for the first time ever, actually compose stuff and have it sound like ACTUAL MUSIC with an amazing virtual orchestra under our fingertips. At least for
me (and I know that for a LOT of other users too) investing in this library was a HUGE difference in my carreer, both, professionally and financially.

Personally, I would have no problem at all if this animal costed twice as much, even 3 times more. It is an investment that pays off itself.
I have a lot of respect and gratitude to all the VSL team.

And just to think about the ammount of time I will save by using the VI makes me scream with joy! That means I will be able to write more music, with more and more patches, with less programming and, hopefuly, make more money .
VSL: Please keep things like they are now (about the pricing), and keep the GREAT stuff coming!

Cheers,

Fernando

@Miguélez said:

but, those people should just realize that perhaps this library is not targeted to them. This library is targeted to a group of people who can buy it with no problem at all, or reccoup their investment very soon, and/or people who has made enough money out of this library to buy it 40 times over. AND, those people usually don´t waste time bithching about prices. They`re busy working.Fernando

Fernando, The guys who could happily pay 40 times over are using custom libs. VSL is directly aimed at users like me. I need the best option possible but can't afford a custom made lib.

Since I was one of those who strongly objected .... not to the price of VSL ... but to the manner they impletemented or disregarded their VIP promises.

VSL Pro Edition is worth every penny. Maybe the full cube is too. No argument from me there.

I just object to having to pay full price for the Cube Standard VI when I already own those samples in my pro edition.
Simple as that.
A reasonable crossgrade fee is all that was wanted for.

Since that did not happen and i would indeed be "paying for the same samples twice" the issues are the following.

If I buy the cube VI
1) will vsl at some future point abondon me again when the create a NEW improved VI?? or whatever it will be called.
since they seem comfortable making me pay twice for the same samples why not three times?

2) does the VI REALLY improve the workflow? while the video demos look great there is still an open question about how much time will be saved VI vs. Pro Edtion. The violin was very impressive but it still took 15 key switches ... not exactly playable.

3) VSL is now a software company. All samples tied to their software. How will they be with updates when OS's move on? once they have our $10K how nice are they going to be about updates. Or do they pull out some Waves WUP BS. So far their have been no statements in this regard.

4) How good are they out working out software bugs ??? There are so many host apps, so many computer variables. NI seems to have been suffering with their MAC apps so why not VSL too? I can easily imagine mac users getting much less performance than PC users? and how quickly will VSL move to Macintel?

5) lost dongle policy?

6) Lee's thoughtful posts on multi computer/dongle issues.

etc etc.

My ultimate point is that much needs to be worked out. Much of it will be a work in progress as VSL work through the unknowable issues that will arise.

This required trust on our part.
Trust that they will be good as a software company.
Trust that updates will be free or really cheap.
Trust that they will not WUP us.
Trust that someday I don't have to pay three times for the same samples when their software moves on.

And trust is what they lost when they abandoned the VIP policy of "never paying for the same samples twice". Regardles of how perfectly they are now parsing that policy.
I did not trust Bill Clinton as he parsed everything that came out of his mouth.
I don't trust Bush as he sidesteps and parses.

All this is of course IMHO. But I have $6k invested in this company and every right to hold them to their publicly proclaimed policies.

VSL may someday get more of my dollars. I am naturally interested in the VI.
But I will not consider buying it until all these issues are resolved. And even then with their new found talent for parsing their policies I would still be cautious.

Which is a shame. I had my money set aside for the cube. I can easily afford it.
I can easily justify the purchase.
So what if put in another 5K.

and three years later ........ when they announce their VSL "hexagon" ......
oops .... no crossgrade.... you have to pay a full $10k for the standard edtion (which is everything you already own but it is now stuck in orhpaned unsupported software)... so you have to pay $10k again for the standard and then another 2K to unlock another X amount of samples ......

Trust is what was lost but ultimately required.