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  3. "real vibrato"?

  • "real vibrato"?

    N
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    Regular LFO vibrato sounds cheesy & artificial. Sampled vibrato is fixed in the sample.

    Why aren't there any "real vibrato" LFOs, which "breathe" available? Or something similar...(maybe there are)?

    Last night I was watching the DVD "Art Of Violin" again, where Yehudi Menuhin comments admiringly on the many different kinds of vibrato used by David Oistrakh. It's a fundamental aspect of sound and interpretation for so many instruments.

    Vibrato is simply a variation in pitch and amplitude....isn't this something Kontakt 2 could do well? And what about the new VI, which is so intelligent...surely that's a possibility too?

    Calling all masterminds [;)]!!

    Nigel

    PS I also posted this on Northern Sounds
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    @Nigel Watson said:

    Regular LFO vibrato sounds cheesy & artificial. Sampled vibrato is fixed in the sample.



    No kidding. I hope and expect with what's new it will solve that problem. I sometimes use the pitch wheel and play the vibrato myself, but even then, it's not that simple, it's still a question of ear-hand coordination exactly like a violin player, so why should anybody expect to do this as effectively as a violinist who spent 15 years perfecting his vibrato. I just hope there are more natural vibratos available.
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    >why should anybody expect to do this as effectively as a violinist who spent 15 years perfecting his vibrato

    Exactly. Nigel, you might want to get a ribbon controller and then go practice for a year or so. By then you should have come up with something quite expressive *and* flexible, i think.

    In the meantime, you could look into ways to enhance the existing vibrato methods, like not just controlling vibrato depth by the modwheel, but also modulating the LFO speed by another controller, a foot pedal even, and control AM depth separately with yet another controller.

    Christian

    show reel home page studio pics gear list
  • N
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    thanks Guy, Christian..

    I think I *will* go the Doepfer controller way !

    What I would like to do is have simultaneous, independent control of vibrato speed and depth. And, as pointed out, volume and timbre as well as pitch modulation becuase they are all factors in the vibrato "quality".

    I still wonder why there are no "intelligent" LFO algorithms available, though.

    Here are some other replies from NorthernSounds if anyone is interested:

    http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?p=359887#post359887


    Nigel
  • J
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    The best I've seen for varying vibrato is incorporated in Celemony's Melodyne software. The problem is that LFO modulating frequency messes with the formant, while LFO modulating amplitude messes with the spectral content... or rather, _doesn't_ mess with the spectral content -- It _should_ mess with the spectral content, if it's going to replicate the "real thing"!
    Physical modelling also stands a chance, I suppose, but it's a million years off, in my opinion... (and there the control structure is so bloody complex that trying to get anything expressive out of the things requires a year-long learning curve!)

    Resynthesis techniques are the only ones that will get the problem sussed in the way you're talking about. It just isn't possible with an untouched sample. You can only hope to get the effect by choosing many different articulations over short sequences, and varying the vibrato choices as you go.

    [EDIT: welll, this is being too exclusive. Sorry. It might be possible with some sort of dynamic filtering as well. But I haven't seen anything convincing, at this point.]

    cheers,

    J.
  • N
    N
    jbm...

    Thanks! That's just the kind of thoughtful reply I was hoping for [:)]

    I understand the challenges posed by a faithful simulation of vibrato, but I would be content with something much simpler. A LFO can easily be assigned to modulate pitch, amplitude, and timbre (as far as that's possible with a filter) -all major components fo vibrato; but the LFO quickly sounds fake & "cheesy" because of the predictable nature of the oscillation.

    If there were a LFO with a certain "randomness", or pre-programmed variabilty, in it's oscillation, I think that its vibrato could sound more believable. I've not yet seen a LFo which can do anything other than complete random.

    I've experimented in exs24 by modulating speed of the LFO with a second, random LFO. If the first LFO modulates pitch, amplitude and filter drive, the effect is quite nice, especially if you modulate the depth via mod wheel and speed via pressure for instance.

    But of course, it's a poor attempt at a living vibrato [8-)] .

    A better way would be to use a ribbon controller for playing the vibrato. In Chris Heins Horns VI there's a nice demo where he does this very effectively for the trombone. Trombone vibrato is a less dynamic affair than on a string instrument anyway, and I think there it works pretty well.

    It's here:
    http://www.bestservice.de/detail.asp/de/plug_ins_vi_orchestra/chris_hein_horns_vol_1/404522a66p249p64p49

    if anyone's interested.

    Nigel