Sure.

Lets end this thread, dude...we can go on forever.

I think the VSL is a great library. But there is room to improve.
Maybe not for its use in Pop Music (according to you) but definitely for use in Filmmusic (according to me).

Cheers ! [:D]

Thor,

I won't write a lengthy post since I TOTALLY agree with what you said and have said it myself in the past but not as eloquintly as you have. [[;)]]

Cheers!

Guy

sorry my last post was related to dpcon......

@William said:

Thor,

You seem to be operating on the principle that ONLY reverb recorded at the same time as the sample, then reproduced with release samples, is valid.

Is that what you think? I am trying to understand your problem here.

....man, I should have taken the blue pill....that's what I get for agreeing with what Doug said in his forum...and I don't even like East West...can't stand it as a matter of fact.

But in a nutshell, what i was saying : When you record a Large Orchestra for a Film, you will not record it in the most dry space. This is not my opinion (and neither a Dogma) but everyday practise. Nobody records Orchestras Super Dry in an acousticly treated Dead space but in a Church, a Hall, a Studio with a great sound. The Hall is a HUGE part of the sound...and its not just what comes after the sound ends - the Hall is constantly blended in.

Then you wonder why your samples just never sound so real, even though you are using highly sophisticated articulations like VSL etc...

Our ears are very trained to the sound of an orchestra because its one of those sounds that everybody gets to hear as they grow up. Even when you are not a musician...Orchestral music is in every movie, shopping mall, at home around Xmas (at least, hopefully not only) etc...but its never DRY.

Listen to the amazing Demos of the VSL. Do those really sound real to you ? maybe at first listen...but then compare it to a real orchestra ...

Also, I am not saying that I want the VSL guys to completely change their philo on having the samples dryer...but I think they could improve their room sound....split the difference between sonic implants and VSL...to add warmth. A lot of those demos when you turn them up, start hurting your ears..a lot of midrange going on, harsh, shrill sometimes...I would love it for them to make it sound better right out of the box, so that I don't have to spend so much time EQing and verberating and what not ...

Listen to the VI Demo of VELFade...that Oboe sustain sounds horrible. Do you agree ?? It phases like crazy...

That's all I am basically saying. And yes, its just my personal opinion. I do know tons of composers who would agree though.

You know what ?...like I said before...this is too complex to discuss when typing on a forum...and I gotta cruise...thanks for your input.

Best,

Thor

@Guy said:

Thor,

I won't write a lengthy post since I TOTALLY agree with what you said and have said it myself in the past but not as eloquintly as you have. [[;)]]

Cheers!

Guy

Wow ! thanks so much for backing me up. I started to think I am crazy...well, I am but that's besides the point...

...the next drink is on me...


thanks man,

[:D]

Thor,

I imagine everyone here agrees with your basic point on recording environments as it is well known to anyone with the slightest clue about the subject. The sound properties you suggest that come about from this interaction will in fact emerge when the samples are placed properly as in MIR. The difference is versatility. I do both orchestral and pop (and live orchestra.) I also produce orchestral Broadway style arrangements for outdoor venues. So VSL is a Godsend because it allows me to do it all. If one is doing Orchestra in Hall only, then a library like that is fine I'm sure (if one doesn't want the fine control of articulations and realistic legatos and such.)

Everyone has got some caching up to do with VSL's latest step however. I'm not aware of anyone catching up to the performace tool yet and they have advanced well beyond that now. Their competition knows it and has let their true feelings be known. Nonetheless I listened to lots of demos at EWQL today and it confirms the validity of the approach you suggest. I think MIR will address whatever shortcomings you perceive in VSL.

Cheers as well,

DC

@Thor said:

.....but if you have any experience standing in front of a real orchestra...if pop if classical if Film - the room that they are recorded in is always a crucial element of the sound - they never get recorded as dry as possible

And that's where you're wrong. I can think of at least one major studio where this is exactly the case; there is almost no room sound at all (in terms of echo). Oh, and yes, I have stood in front of an orchestra, maybe more often than you have [:D]

The other thing to remember is that a big, boomy orchestral sound may be the current fashion in some circles, but it was not always so, and there is no reason to think that it will serve every project.

When I decided that my primary library would be from VSL I weighed this up very carefully. There were lots of pros and cons to the hall vs. dry(ish) argument, but in the end, even if I only got samples for the hall sound (e.g. EW), I couldn't find anything that didn't sound synthy when used as an ensemble. Then there was the quality of the solo winds to consider, then the legato and repetition and so on. In some ways a library like EW would have had a less steep learning curve for me, but I'm glad that I made the right decision.

FWIW I do have EW products with that "horrid hall" sound that you seem to love, but I try to avoid using them, and when (if) VSL releases a product that does the same job, then EW will be retired from my computers.

DG

and all walked off happily into the sunset....... [:D] [:D] [:D]

nice work, guys, all of you!! [[;)]] [:D]

Nigel

@dpcon said:

I imagine everyone here agrees with your basic point on recording environments as it is well known to anyone with the slightest clue about the subject. The sound properties you suggest that come about from this interaction will in fact emerge when the samples are placed properly as in MIR. The difference is versatility. I do both orchestral and pop (and live orchestra.) I also produce orchestral Broadway style arrangements for outdoor venues. So VSL is a Godsend because it allows me to do it all. If one is doing Orchestra in Hall only, then a library like that is fine I'm sure (if one doesn't want the fine control of articulations and realistic legatos and such.)

No need to reiterate what Dave said above. That is my standpoint on this matter exactly.

And now I'll do what Nigel suggested. [:)]

/Mattias

@Thor said:

[...] ...the VSL is great, I agree...but if you want to do Lord of the Rings... [...]

There are people silently reading this forum from time to time who know _good_ stories to tell in this respect, believe me. [H]

@Thor said:

I agreed with somethin Doug had said and next thing you know, I am called a Dickhead...
Thor

No I did not - I gave you 2 options and you chose the latter for some reason.

[:P]

@Thor said:

Listen to the amazing Demos of the VSL. Do those really sound real to you ? maybe at first listen...but then compare it to a real orchestra ...
Best,
Thor

This is a good thread - at least you got out of your shell and actually said something and some interesting points too. That is good in my book.

Whoever said that it was necessary for a sample library to sound 'real'? What does that mean? Sample libraries are at best for convenience and speed of work and budgetary requirements. What do you want them to sound like a real orchestra for?

Look at films - are they real? Does what happens in a film represent minute to minute real life? Of course it doesn't - it merely represents a facsimile of whatever drama unfolds over a 2 hour period. Therefore, why all this obsession about sample libraries sounding real? Real what?

Once again, I back up everything Thor said and this doesn't mean I'm not as much a fan as you are of VSL. It is very simple, Thor speaks with his ears first. This is what it's all about, has been is, and will always be. Anything else is rationalizing things... One could imagine things or hallucinate but not distorted reality of what he's hearing. It is hypocritical to say this product is just perfect and by no means should be compared to a real orchestra. Of course it will be compared, that is the nature the human ear. It is also these kind of comments, that will make VSL a better product all the time, and that is what we what, Isn't it? How would you like if VSL would stay the same for the next 10 years without any improvements since their philosophy is that we don't want to be compared with a real orchestra.
I take it that this conversation will stay civil from beginning to end. [:)]

@Thor said:

.....but if you have any experience standing in front of a real orchestra...if pop if classical if Film - the room that they are recorded in is always a crucial element of the sound - they never get recorded as dry as possible

And that's where you're wrong. I can think of at least one major studio where this is exactly the case; there is almost no room sound at all (in terms of echo). Oh, and yes, I have stood in front of an orchestra, maybe more often than you have [:D]

DG


You probably have stood in front of an orchestra a few times - you just didn't listen !! [:D]
You also didn't really understand what point I am trying to make over the last pages and I won't get into it again...You took the ball and ran away....

so keep running...

t

@Thor said:

.....but if you have any experience standing in front of a real orchestra...if pop if classical if Film - the room that they are recorded in is always a crucial element of the sound - they never get recorded as dry as possible

And that's where you're wrong. I can think of at least one major studio where this is exactly the case; there is almost no room sound at all (in terms of echo). Oh, and yes, I have stood in front of an orchestra, maybe more often than you have [:D]

DG


You probably have stood in front of an orchestra a few times - you just didn't listen !! [:D]
t

Now you're just being insulting. I won't bother any more as it's obvious that I have more experience of orchestras than you do.

DG

@PaulR said:

Whoever said that it was necessary for a sample library to sound 'real'? What does that mean? Sample libraries are at best for convenience and speed of work and budgetary requirements.

Well,...okay then. You are right. Why don't you use the old Roland Orchestral samples...they should do it for you. Dry, unreaistic BUT fast to use.

And why spend so much money on VSL, if it isn't for the realism of the library ?For what reason ??

Are you sleeping ??

You just don't like to use your ears...my friend. That's not good. Not Good

DG,

you said "I have been standing in front of an orchestra more often than you"

when you start something like that...you have to be ready for a return...

I hear the VSL Solo Violin Legato patch....

HEY !! Don't take this so personal and serious...I am a fool and will always return in the same tone somebody attacks me...

but its all good, no pun intended. After all we are talking music here...and music is FUN.

So lets keep that spirit and stop telling each other who has more experience than others....

you don't know how many times I have been in front of an orchestra, I don't know that about you - so I won't speculate about it.

T

Thor,

I had this unrealistic, fictional thought in the past, never-the-less interesting idea that VSL should have 2 recordings for every sound, 1-The dry studio sound 2- Recorded in a good concert hall, so we could even feel the air surrounding the instrument, as crazy as that may sound, but I think you would know what I'm talking about... Of course that would take twice the memory, but I wouldn't mind having 5% of the product focused on concert hall recording. There are millions of dollars spent in making good concert halls done by some of the greatest engineers, all this to have the most natural sound, and VSL does not take advantage of this. So in my opinion you really only get half or at the most 3/4 of the natural sound.

@Thor said:

Well,...okay then. You are right. Why don't you use the old Roland Orchestral samples...they should do it for you. Dry, unreaistic BUT fast to use.
And why spend so much money on VSL, if it isn't for the realism of the library ?For what reason ??
Are you sleeping ??
You just don't like to use your ears...my friend. That's not good. Not Good

So much money on VSL? - that's funny. Have you any idea how much money gets spent on equipment over the years. And not only that - apply the 'Rule of 7' which roughly states you can double what you spent in terms of what things cost you - after 7 years. Like in 1971, I got a Mini Moog - cost £850 sterling - that's like £4.5K today. And I had 2. That doesn't include Hammond's and all the rest everything between say 1967 and now.

What does a real Hammond or a real Mini Moog sound like huh? I've heard real orchestras that don't sound real.

So much money to you now, may not seem like so much money in 20 years time. One of the most irritating things I've seen here over the last 4 days or so, is the preposterous notion that - if I can't afford it - then no other bugger can either. Get my drift?

And besides, I won't be getting this whole VI. I don't need all of that. I will buy what is necessary to me and as time goes by, I will maybe pick up more items along the way.

What DG said about live orchestral recordings often being done as dry as possible is a good point. In the studio days of Hollywood, this was always the case. An entire orchestra would be recorded as dry as bone. This is obviously still true when a composer/engineer wishes to alter the sound after the fact.

There are two basic philosophies to recording (sorry to lecture about something Dietz learned before birth, but I'm making a point): (1) is to be absolutely faithful to the sound within its environment and reproduce the experience of being there as perfectly as possible. This can be seen most clearly in the practice of recording engineers of the 1950s, who sometimes would use just one perfectly placed mic to record an entire symphony and almost nothing would be done to the sound after those sessions except splicing and disc-pressing; (2) is to get an extremely accurate reproduction of a specific sound in isolation from its environment, so that it can be mixed and manipulated with other sounds. A soundman on a film production with a shotgun mic takes this approach in the extreme, but it is also seen with sampling of the kind VSL does, in which the room is so dry and quiet that it is designed to be mixed with later, added-on room or hall environments.

....when you record a 40 piece Orchestra in a Studio - its still not as dry as on a silent stage...the room sound is still part of the orchestral sound - roommics are always used and a violin section is not close miked as in 1 inch above the instrument so the room even in Hollywood is part of the sound which is what I have been saying all along. And if you record an Orchestra in a bad sounding room (like the seattle orch)...it sounds bad !!

You cannot get a good orchestra sound, if you have 40 people sitting in a shitty sounding room...even if you try to record it as dry as possible and add verb later. Why is this being argued so much ??

I give up....

T