A few points of clarity regarding recent flames.

1. That Doug guy absolutely railed against VSL's new product as if it's a badly concieved, worthless piece of overpriced junk. This is like a guy who sells telegraphs saying that the new telephone thing is garbage.

2. His remarks were untrue on a factual level and incorrect technically (and obnoxiously shrill.)

3. These comments were said to be "spot on" by the illiustious Thor which is when the trouble began. Even so what was adressed by the VSL users here was the only actual valid point which is the ambient sound on sample librarys: a fair discussion.

4. Mr. Thor (a likable fellow to be sure) thinks the room sound on VSL is sh!t not realizing he's telling all VSL users their music sounds like sh!t by implication. Even so, in my own case the professional world has never come to this conclusion and indeed has commented repeatedly on the extreme quality of the library. So there you have it.

@dpcon said:

4. Mr. Thor (a likable fellow to be sure) thinks the room sound on VSL is sh!t not realizing he's telling all VSL users their music sounds like sh!t by implication.

Oh my! Oh my! Oh my! [[[[:|]]]] [[[[:|]]]] [[[[:|]]]]

Now I understand why people jumped all over me when I also made that same remark in the past. It never ever occurred to me that I was being critical of all the VSLs users and their works to the point of saying what they do is shit??? and I'm sure it's the same for Thor. If people want to stay in their "comfort zone" then there is no room what-so-ever for discussion, I would advise Thor to not discuss this issue on the forum anymore.

Thanks for the clarification dpcon.

Hey guys !

Thanks for bringing the conversation back to a normal tone - it seems the hooligans are gone... for a while I thought I was reading thru my junkmail folder
[:D]

I knew I was starting trouble when I said that Doug's criticizm was spot on...sorry for being such an instigator...but look how it has turned out !! ..hehe

Before I say anthing about the actual subject matter I would like to mention something else. There is an inherent problem when exchanging thoughts or opinions in written form. I tend to exaggerate very often in an attempt to make thinks clearer. What happens though is that somebody will then pick a phrase like "VSL roomsound is sh^t" and builds a whole thread around it and everybody feels attacked. So there is definitely a learning curve for me of how to better convey my own ideas/thoughts/opinions. But somebody will always interpret things into what I write. (or what anybody writes)

Having said that, I honestly don't intend any offense with any remarks of mine (even if it sounds like it...it's just my lack of a better word or phrase often) and yes, I know I am a sarcastic one - I know that. So if you read anything that knocks you off your feet...its probably meant as a joke. (the problem with written language again...) - I only attack those who attack me (and I try to be the greater person from now on...)

Back to the roomsound discussion. I do not think that the VSL roomsound that is married to every sample is absolut horrible shit (exagerration). I would have never upgraded to the proedition if that's the case. And I love my VSL.
I would like to, at some point, use only one library, for simplicity (less loadig, less searching thru samples, writing more music in a day) - right now, I am using three libraries and even though the new VI would allow me to do my entire Violin section on one track - I still will end up with 4-5 tracks after doubling with other libraries which is a great sound that I like and cannot accomplish with VSL and Altiverb alone. I am talking about warmth.

Btw, when I criticize the VSL, I am NOT critizing everybodys music. Great music is great music, even with old miroslav samples. Basil Poledouris is still using those and his stuff sounds great (and Roland Orchestral cards).

I am criticizing the warmth of the sound of VSL. Just like Guy had said...the VSL tends to lack warmth.

I don't want to go on but hear your feedback. How many people would agree with me that the VSL lacks warmth ?
Listen to all the VSL demos - any of them that could be described as warm/ rich orchestral sound...Once again, I am talking about nuances...not it sounds like shit.
Also, I am criticizing the transition between layers in the VSL as well as the transition between 0.5, 0.3 and stacc samples - as heard in the VI Video Demo.

What does everybody think about that Oboe Sustain VelXfade Video VI demo...Do you think it sounds good ? I personnally (and that's my opinion) think that the Oboe sustain sounds only mediocre for a Library that caliber.

If nobody agrees with me, I don't have reason to explain/discuss why I think that is the case which would lead us to the roomsound discussion. Also, I am not talking about the roomsound LENGTH as in decay but quality.

Best,

Thor

@Guy said:

It's cool to see how we've upgraded this thread back to "normal conversation [H] ".

Thanks! [:)] Thanks! [:D] Thanks! [:D]

I guess I'll stay. We all know I'm much too important to leave this forum... [:O]ops: [*-)] [:O]ops:

First of all I'm saying this in a calm voice. (Hard to convey on the internet sometimes.)

I just find it interesting that you seemed to think that I (?) strayed so far off topic.. All of a sudden the thread had gone to s*it.

I did offer what I thought was a valid opinion. Perhaps you where admiring my rhyming skills so much that you missed or glossed over it. [:P] Anyway, I guess my sense of humor is hit or miss with some people. Can't please everyone.

For the record, I agree with Thor on some of his points. He's not a bad guy. Just kinda stubborn like me. [:D]. I just say things out loud other people won't say. As a matter of fact, if I met Thor in person we'd probably hit it off very well.

Aaannyway.

Btw it's Kube (i)mage. Not KubeL mage lol.

@Thor said:

Hey guys !

What does everybody think about that Oboe Sustain VelXfade Video VI demo...Do you think it sounds good ? I personnally (and that's my opinion) think that the Oboe sustain sounds only mediocre for a Library that caliber.

If nobody agrees with me, I don't have reason to explain/discuss why I think that is the case which would lead us to the roomsound discussion. Also, I am not talking about the roomsound LENGTH as in decay but quality.

Best,

Thor

I just went in and watched that particular video again. I'm not actually sure which oboe Paul has used there - Viennese or French.

I think the whole crossfade thing is general though is extremely good and can't really hear or see a problem with it.

You guys,

Every VSL user has given constructive criticism about the library. If someone says it lacks warmth - fine. Every musician I know is always talking about warming things up that are in digital formats. OTOH you can also say that the VSL sound is pristine and that this allows the user to deal with this natural sound in any number of ways. Personally I don't think they lack warmth but are just very immediate with incredible detail and resolution - but to each his own. Warm things up to your liking (which is adding a certain amount of noise or harmonic distortion - no?) We all do that in various ways.

My point is that honest criticsm happens here every day from all of us. The criticsm from that other developer was totally dishonest and flat untrue. The tone of his remarks revealed a very heavy agenda. I thought his remarks were spotty not spot on.

Stick around you guys, you're a lot of fun and have already contributed here so you're most welcome for any sincere dialogue.

@KubeImage said:

For the record, I agree with Thor on some of his points. He's not a bad guy. Just kinda stubborn like me. [:D]. I just say things out loud other people won't say. As a matter of fact, if I met Thor in person we'd probably hit it off very well.

Btw it's Kube (i)mage. Not KubeL mage lol.

...thanks man. We probably would hit it off very well and yes, I am a stubborn...Taurus ! ...hehe
[:O]ops:

@dpcon said:

You guys,

Every musician I know is always talking about warming things up that are in digital formats. ...(..).. Personally I don't think they lack warmth but are just very immediate with incredible detail and resolution - but to each his own. Warm things up to your liking (which is adding a certain amount of noise or harmonic distortion - no?

I agree with you in its core. But I am not talking about analog vs. digital...I am a digital fanatic and don't miss analog at all. And I am not talking about warming things up in the mixing stage. Its like saying, use a cheap mic pre for your vocal and just add warmth later to it. Some things need to be captured at the recording stage or they are gone. Once again, that is my opinion after having fu^ked many recordings and learning from it.

We are in the realm of subjectivity so I am not gonna argue my point any longer...can't argue about taste, right ?

Dpcon, I am very curious about your opinion on that oboe sustain in the VI Video Demo....do you call that pristine too ? I think its the cleanest phasing sound ever recorded...hehe (sorry for the sarcasm) - Do you not hear it ?

I respect your opinion so I would really like to know what you think about it and how a great mixer will get rid of that phasing sound. Well, we could add a lot of reverb but ...we can't, because we are talking about productions where you want your Orchestra to be pretty dry, hence VSL's advantage (recorded dry, ..ish)

Thanks for posting your opinions. This is a great discussion, eh ?

Best,

T

@dpcon said:

Personally I don't think they lack warmth but are just very immediate with incredible detail and resolution - but to each his own.

Is there any chance that some people might have the ear ever slightly more sensitive than others for these things, and these people are willing to help others on this forum by sharing this information without trying to to show any kind of superiority? Could this be an option?

This could easily be interpreted as if I'm saying: All the VSL users are tone deaf except me!(and Thor). I hope that won't be the case!!!
If we don't hear the same thing, obviously we can't undersatnd each other, it's like if we're talking in 2 different languages...

Oh oh...the interpretation experts are right now, stirring up an attack...attack of the clones...hehe

in all fun,

thor

Thor,

I haven't listened to that particular demo but I will and respond.

Keep in mind that up until VSL most libraries had lots of terrible sounding samples. VSL was the first to come out with a library that was virtually 100% usable. There were rare exceptions like the Vienna oboe which everyone complained about so VSL promptly released the French oboe which is lovely. That's why we like this company because they respond to constructive (and even nasty) criticsm.

If there are problems with the new release they will be addressed. Also we have all relentlessly called for a new level in strings because that's the achilles heal in all sample libraries and none of us are satisfied. Herb has announced and epic string session so the ball is rolling.

Yes we have a difference of opinion on the merits of the silent stage. As I said it is a compromise of sorts but not any kind of extreme negative to my ears anyway.

Cheers

@dpcon said:

Thor,

I haven't listened to that particular demo but I will and respond.

Keep in mind that up until VSL most libraries had lots of terrible sounding samples. VSL was the first to come out with a library that was virtually 100% usable. There were rare exceptions like the Vienna oboe which everyone complained about so VSL promptly released the French oboe which is lovely. That's why we like this company because they respond to constructive (and even nasty) criticsm.

If there are problems with the new release they will be addressed. Also we have all relentlessly called for a new level in strings because that's the achilles heal in all sample libraries and none of us are satisfied. Herb has announced and epic string session so the ball is rolling.

Yes we have a difference of opinion on the merits of the silent stage. As I said it is a compromise of sorts but not any kind of extreme negative to my ears anyway.

Cheers

You da man !

@Another User said:

Thanks for posting your opinions. This is a great discussion, eh ?

And now we've got past that extreme nonsensical stuff it's getting better.Objectivity is taking a hold, and that bodes well for an intelligent discussion.

Can't stay long (trying to finish a job) but i pose a question.

Given the differing views on the merits or otherwise of digital output, have any of you tried to add a 'tape' effect, or 'analogue' warmer to any of your VSL work?
What were the results?

And, Dave Connor wrote of the dribble Doug whateverhisnameis posted on his site.

Dave's totally correct. The information was incorrect, and presented in a format indicative of out and out envy and jealousy. I'll be frank.

Rightly or wrongly in your respective opinions, my past purchases of this or that have been based on the integrity of the developer or seller, and even if they've had a good product, if i sense they're 'tacky', or possessed of little integrity i won't buy. Fortunately, Doug's products fall way short of the mark (IMHO), so that's a dilemma i won't ever have to face. His behaviour was unacceptable, and i won't even bother to investigate or research any product he may be touting.


Lead on gentlemen, i'm enjoying the discussion, and learning much.

Regards to you all,

Alex.

Thor,

One of my ultimate test for warmth, is when my grandma comes over, if she sais, what's that instrument? That's not a good sign! [*-)]

@Guy said:

Thor,

One of my ultimate test for warmth, is when my grandma comes over, if she sais, what's that instrument? That's not a good sign! [*-)]

hehe...that's some funny sheit. [:D]

I always turn the heat up before my grandma comes over...for additional warmth.

For those of you who make a living with composing or music in general....

Aren't we lucky bastards ??? [:)]

My schedule is about to go crazy again so my week of rest is over (and xmas is right around the corner, Damn it !!) ...but hey, chatting with everyone here at the forum is a lot of fun...

I will miss you suckas...and will try to keep an eye on this thread because I heard its been nominated for ...Best Thread of the ..week !!...

then again...there is always the computer crash...where one can check out the forum in between ...

Keep up the constructive criticizm....and don't forget: Music is supposed to be fun. You could be working 9-5 at the local Bank...(ah,..instead of 8am-4am in the studio..hm..9-5 might not be soo bad after all...if I think about it..)

Be back lata...

[[:D]] [[:D]]

By the way...how do you post an mp3 on this forum ?

Since we can talk about sounds until we're dead - I decided why not just let the music speak for itself....

but I need somebodys help to post it...basically, I have taken the same four bars and let a bunch of libraries play - you can decide for yourself what sounds warm and what doesn't...

I have an mp3 and a screenshot of logic so everybody can see what 's going on.

Only if you are interested... Oh, out fo fairness I won't say which other ibraries are in use...its besides the point anyways...

lemme know...

thor

Actually, putting an MP3 here is something I also would like to know how to do.


I have some cool helicopter sounds... [:P]

So now that all are so relieved that everything is back to music, as opposed to sarcasm...

WHAT THE HELL WAS THE POINT OF THIS THREAD?

(That's no sarcasm by the way. A simple question.)

Thor and his obedient disciple here have made no points whatsoever. The room sound is bad, the room sound is o.k. VSL is bad, VSL is good. EWQLSO is better, EWQLSO is not better -----

what is your point? You have said absolutely nothing with many, many words. Say something meaningful. That is a simple, direct challenge for you. Say something that means something about music, samples, etc. Don't waffle, don't bullshit, just say something that has something which linguists call DENOTATION. Or SENTIENCE. Or THOUGHT PROCESSES...

@dpcon said:

There were rare exceptions like the Vienna oboe which everyone complained about

NOOOO..... I do love the Viennese oboe! [:D] (at least not everyone then hehe [H] )