Mighty Thor is leaving out the main point concerning room tone in VSL vs. EW - of course VSL has room tone since it is physically impossible not to, however it is a minimized or dry one, which can be covered or altered by reverb. Unlike EW which has it as a main feature and is "Frozen" within it..

@cwillsher said:

So, mighty Thor, tell us how I should eliminate the room sound from QLSO?
You must have a 'tweak' for that? [[;)]]

Which one was mighty Thor - the tweakhead or the dickhead? In all this excitement, I forget how many shots I fired.

#1 Tweakhead or Dickhead ? Can I be both PaulyBoy ? I guess since I am critical that would make me a dickhead...sounds like you should just buy the upgrade and be happy...

#2 I don't own QLSO because I think the sound sucks...but what Doug (again I am not a fan of his, he is a dickhead just like myself) said in his forum was very spot on, if you like it or not.

#3 I am happy that Pauly works on projects that require dry Orchestras ...good for you ! When I use Orchestras I usually try to make them sound like...ah...AN ORCHESTRA and I don't think I have yet to be asked to deliver an Orchestra with a Livingroom as a space - I bet you that most of you use Altiverb Concertgebouw or similar Reverbs everytime you work , so why not have a nice roomsound within the sample - trust me, a big part of the warm orchestra sound (that vsl is missing) has to do with the Hall its recorded in and you cannot make that up afterwards !!! If you can - post a demo - I haven't heard one on this forum.

@William said:

Mighty Thor is leaving out the main point concerning room tone in VSL vs. EW - of course VSL has room tone since it is physically impossible not to, however it is a minimized or dry one, which can be covered or altered by reverb. Unlike EW which has it as a main feature and is "Frozen" within it..

well, how many times do you need an Orchestra with no Hall sound - are you gonna record 80 people in your bathroom - come on !!

@Thor said:

Room sound...its not a matter of taste, its a fact - its there ! It's a matter of taste if you like it or not...but its there. At this point I have found EQ and reverb settings to deal with it but it can be annoying

if you're concerned about room sound, then EWQLSO would certainly not be for you - it's bigger, much bigger and it stops me from getting the more intimate sounds I need at times for more modern scores. Whereas, with Altiverb etc. we are able to place VSL in any space we choose.

So, mighty Thor, tell us how I should eliminate the room sound from QLSO?

You must have a 'tweak' for that? [[[;)]]]



WOW ! All you guys all want Orchestras with no Room - Next time I record an Orchestra - I will ask them to be in my livingroom, so that I can add my own reverb later...

Come on guys - we are not talking about gtrs or perc or drums....we are talking about an Orchestra...think about the funtionality !!

And as far as I understand, QLSO has 3 different mic positions, right ?? If that doesn't give you any flexibilty....


But hey why is everybody going so crazy over that remark - Doug had some good points that make sense to anybody that actual is working as a composer...

[[[;)]]]

@Mattias Henningson said:

Room sound...of course it's there and I actually think that's a good thing as recording the instruments completely dry would have ruined the sound. The room is just not as dominating as if the samples were recorded in a concert hall. For me the small room gives more possibilities as I'm also using VSL for other things like pop etc where a concert hall ambience just wouldn't work as well (In My Very Humble Opinion). [:)]

/Mattias

Actually this was the selling point for me. When a sample is recorded in a reverberant acoustic then that is the sound you will always get. What I like about VSL is that I can make it sound big, small, reverby (is that a word?) or dry. It's up to me.
DG


I'd like to hear your Big sound - !! The VSL is great at smaller classical sounding stuff...but big ?? no way - From all the demos on this forum not one of them sounds like a big/warm orchestra like the LSO...and its good that way.

[:D]

... time will tell if it actually holds up...and also, you can't make everybody happy. Look at my first post - I agreed with somethin Doug had said and next thing you know, I am called a Dickhead...

The first one to get VI will report - either smiling or crying...

Like I said in another post - I think this new development is a great step forward and will lay groundwork for other great developments that will come in time.
I personally think its not there yet.

And for those of you who like to work step by step, so start with your violin for example...ramtimize it, move on to the next...etc...you clearly haven't been in the position of needing to pump out 20 minutes of produced and mixed music in one week (and address insane changes) - because you simply can't work like that...and for those who are in the position of having to do that, the VI won't work out...unless you dedicate 3 G5's to it, so that you can load everything in.

Price wise...well, I think its too steep. Sue me. I have spend my money on VSL first and Pro and another $6000 (roughly) - Sorry, I can't justify it. And I am not knocking it.

To Dietz and the VSL Team:

I envy the experience of sitting in a chair and reading all these posts...you guys must be laughing all day long...people get soo crazy about this...
I jumped on your library as one of the first, simply because I always felt that you are a great team of confident "know your sh&t" kinda people...and i haven't changed my mind about that.

About my criticism...I am just playing devils advocate but I do have sincere criticism that I constantly discuss with many other prof composers who think very much alike me. In this day and age, anybody that can afford a computer calls himself a composer and posts stuff on the forum - its very hard that way to actually post concrete criticism without loosing the thread after some nitwit throws in his 2 senses and drags the "conversation" to the ground.

I will see you guys at Namm, and you will be able to put a face on this bad boy. And I would love to talk to you a bit about what I think is not so great...I won't tell you what's great, because you hear that all day long - especially at Namm, because you guys will steal the show with the VI - you know that , don't cha ?

Best,

Thor

Since tons and tons of sessions with orchestral instruments (say strings) have been done in Rooms over the last 75 years, VSL is the ideal sounding library for such. I don't know any Frank Sinatra records done with the LSO in large halls. Or Usher for that matter.

Very silly argument. I've done strings arrangements for well known artists and they were completely floored by the sound of VSL's strings: which were not generic pads or high string lines but linear polyphonic full sections. It would be totally inappropriate and unprofessional to deliver the parts married to some hall verb - I mean it just wouldn't work.

@dpcon said:

Since tons and tons of sessions with orchestral instruments (say strings) have been done in Rooms over the last 75 years, VSL is the ideal sounding library for such. I don't know any Frank Sinatra records done with the LSO. Or Usher for that matter.



Very silly argument. I've done strings arrangements for well known artists and they were completely floored by the sound of VSL's strings: which were not generic pads or high string lines but linear polyphonic full sections. It would be totally inappropriate and unprofessional to deliver the parts married to some hall verb - I mean it just wouldn't work.

I do know of LSO sessions for Usher and Brandy, Celine Dion and such...sorry !

So I guess you have also delivered roomy horns...flutes...to those...

I don't think that one library can serve all masters - if you want to do dry sounding stuff...the VSL is great, I agree...but if you want to do Lord of the Rings...the dry sound in fake reverb is not so great and it would be better to use a library that has a hall recorded with it - which is why we all buy every library out there...

A good example is Sonic Implants - they have a great Room sound, still flexible and not too wet - but enough to make the strings and horns sound warm...I know a lot of people that use those in pop and RnB...and they are standart for TV Composers..

@Another User said:

A good example is Sonic Implants - they have a great Room sound, still flexible and not too wet -

SI are nice enough but really don't compare to VSL for the most part. Sometimes they can be laid in to fatten things up but I stopped using them.

VSL is the best library for executing musical ideas that stem from the Classic literature or composers from that school such as Goldsmith or Williams. A big sound may be nice but it's the sound and behavior of the instruments I'm interested in. A good engineer won't have any problems placing them in any number of environments - why be limited to 1 2 or 3?

like I said not one library servers all masters....

but if you have any experience standing in front of a real orchestra...if pop if classical if Film - the room that they are recorded in is always a crucial element of the sound - they never get recorded as dry as possible - Even Ron Fair's Pop recording sessions are being held at the Record PLant or somewhere with a very nice room
this counts for many instruments - the percussion I record in my living room DRY and close miked don't sound as nice as the Perc I record at the Record Plant DRY and close miked - the room will always affect your sound...

and I don't think the VSL necessarily disagree with it, that
s why they build that stage...I simply don't find it that pleasing and I have read many posts on this forum of people complaining about that part of the sound of VSL.

the VSL doesn't have a warm / nice sounding room for the most part...its a sterile environment and I am not a big fan of it. Hey, I use VSL all the time but I double it up with Sonic or other almost everytime...
Nobody offers the nuances of VSL...no doupt.

Hey , Filmsound (and I am not talking about filmsound from 20 years ago) is very different from the pop sound...so we are comparing apples and oranges.


And those libraries like EW that have a big hall sound , don't sell themselves as a library for pop music - they cover the Film sound and that's what they do best...

I appreciate the civility of your last remarks and will respond in kind.

VSL made a very intelligent decision (I think) in not handcuffing it's users via the silent stage recording. It may be a compromise of sorts but a good one in that you can use small or large ensembles in small or large environments. I've worked a lot with Tom Keane (who's produced Celine Dion btw) and has the best ears in the business and is himself an incredible engineer. He puts the knock in a big hurry on bad sounding production. He was floored by the VSL strings and never had anything but praise for them. So I don't get the "bad sounding room" thing with VSL. You can do all kinds of tricks with it production wise or leave it alone in a nice hall. EWQL isn't some terrible thing either but as you say it's geared for a certain sound and not as nimble sonically or articulation-wise.

That Doug guy over there really impressed me with his sour grapes and professional jealousy. His rant was not only uninformed and inacurate but utterly lacking in class. You will never here that kind of crap from Herb or any of the VSL team. They're a class act with the best product and greatest innovation in the industry.

Thor,

You seem to be operating on the principle that ONLY reverb recorded at the same time as the sample, then reproduced with release samples, is valid.

Is that what you think? I am trying to understand your problem here.

All this is fine if it is your opinion, but just state it as an opinion, not a dogmatic reality. Many people do not share this opinion and WANT relatively dry samples than can be used with convolution, or artificial reverb, or whatever. Your basic concept is the EWQL philosophy, but it is not a universal truth despite what you seem to believe.

Sure.

Lets end this thread, dude...we can go on forever.

I think the VSL is a great library. But there is room to improve.
Maybe not for its use in Pop Music (according to you) but definitely for use in Filmmusic (according to me).

Cheers ! [:D]

Thor,

I won't write a lengthy post since I TOTALLY agree with what you said and have said it myself in the past but not as eloquintly as you have. [[;)]]

Cheers!

Guy

sorry my last post was related to dpcon......

@William said:

Thor,

You seem to be operating on the principle that ONLY reverb recorded at the same time as the sample, then reproduced with release samples, is valid.

Is that what you think? I am trying to understand your problem here.

....man, I should have taken the blue pill....that's what I get for agreeing with what Doug said in his forum...and I don't even like East West...can't stand it as a matter of fact.

But in a nutshell, what i was saying : When you record a Large Orchestra for a Film, you will not record it in the most dry space. This is not my opinion (and neither a Dogma) but everyday practise. Nobody records Orchestras Super Dry in an acousticly treated Dead space but in a Church, a Hall, a Studio with a great sound. The Hall is a HUGE part of the sound...and its not just what comes after the sound ends - the Hall is constantly blended in.

Then you wonder why your samples just never sound so real, even though you are using highly sophisticated articulations like VSL etc...

Our ears are very trained to the sound of an orchestra because its one of those sounds that everybody gets to hear as they grow up. Even when you are not a musician...Orchestral music is in every movie, shopping mall, at home around Xmas (at least, hopefully not only) etc...but its never DRY.

Listen to the amazing Demos of the VSL. Do those really sound real to you ? maybe at first listen...but then compare it to a real orchestra ...

Also, I am not saying that I want the VSL guys to completely change their philo on having the samples dryer...but I think they could improve their room sound....split the difference between sonic implants and VSL...to add warmth. A lot of those demos when you turn them up, start hurting your ears..a lot of midrange going on, harsh, shrill sometimes...I would love it for them to make it sound better right out of the box, so that I don't have to spend so much time EQing and verberating and what not ...

Listen to the VI Demo of VELFade...that Oboe sustain sounds horrible. Do you agree ?? It phases like crazy...

That's all I am basically saying. And yes, its just my personal opinion. I do know tons of composers who would agree though.

You know what ?...like I said before...this is too complex to discuss when typing on a forum...and I gotta cruise...thanks for your input.

Best,

Thor

@Guy said:

Thor,

I won't write a lengthy post since I TOTALLY agree with what you said and have said it myself in the past but not as eloquintly as you have. [[;)]]

Cheers!

Guy

Wow ! thanks so much for backing me up. I started to think I am crazy...well, I am but that's besides the point...

...the next drink is on me...


thanks man,

[:D]

Thor,

I imagine everyone here agrees with your basic point on recording environments as it is well known to anyone with the slightest clue about the subject. The sound properties you suggest that come about from this interaction will in fact emerge when the samples are placed properly as in MIR. The difference is versatility. I do both orchestral and pop (and live orchestra.) I also produce orchestral Broadway style arrangements for outdoor venues. So VSL is a Godsend because it allows me to do it all. If one is doing Orchestra in Hall only, then a library like that is fine I'm sure (if one doesn't want the fine control of articulations and realistic legatos and such.)

Everyone has got some caching up to do with VSL's latest step however. I'm not aware of anyone catching up to the performace tool yet and they have advanced well beyond that now. Their competition knows it and has let their true feelings be known. Nonetheless I listened to lots of demos at EWQL today and it confirms the validity of the approach you suggest. I think MIR will address whatever shortcomings you perceive in VSL.

Cheers as well,

DC

@Thor said:

.....but if you have any experience standing in front of a real orchestra...if pop if classical if Film - the room that they are recorded in is always a crucial element of the sound - they never get recorded as dry as possible

And that's where you're wrong. I can think of at least one major studio where this is exactly the case; there is almost no room sound at all (in terms of echo). Oh, and yes, I have stood in front of an orchestra, maybe more often than you have [:D]

The other thing to remember is that a big, boomy orchestral sound may be the current fashion in some circles, but it was not always so, and there is no reason to think that it will serve every project.

When I decided that my primary library would be from VSL I weighed this up very carefully. There were lots of pros and cons to the hall vs. dry(ish) argument, but in the end, even if I only got samples for the hall sound (e.g. EW), I couldn't find anything that didn't sound synthy when used as an ensemble. Then there was the quality of the solo winds to consider, then the legato and repetition and so on. In some ways a library like EW would have had a less steep learning curve for me, but I'm glad that I made the right decision.

FWIW I do have EW products with that "horrid hall" sound that you seem to love, but I try to avoid using them, and when (if) VSL releases a product that does the same job, then EW will be retired from my computers.

DG

and all walked off happily into the sunset....... [:D] [:D] [:D]

nice work, guys, all of you!! [[;)]] [:D]

Nigel

@dpcon said:

I imagine everyone here agrees with your basic point on recording environments as it is well known to anyone with the slightest clue about the subject. The sound properties you suggest that come about from this interaction will in fact emerge when the samples are placed properly as in MIR. The difference is versatility. I do both orchestral and pop (and live orchestra.) I also produce orchestral Broadway style arrangements for outdoor venues. So VSL is a Godsend because it allows me to do it all. If one is doing Orchestra in Hall only, then a library like that is fine I'm sure (if one doesn't want the fine control of articulations and realistic legatos and such.)

No need to reiterate what Dave said above. That is my standpoint on this matter exactly.

And now I'll do what Nigel suggested. [:)]

/Mattias