@Thor said:

[[[[[:D]]]]]
Thanks Guy for your kind words...if these "members" would have something to say that has anything to do with the subject matter (other than trying to bash on me in order to make themselves feel better) , I would be inclined to respond and engage in a technical/musical discussion between pros who know what they are talking about. But that's not possible with many of the latter posted "Members"

These guys are just not worth the time...

So Kubel, enjoy the cookies, no shredding on my behalf, I will leave that up to William and his Posse who seems to enjoy shredding...knock yourself out !! -

And just as a tip Kugelmeister: The discussion wasn't about flexibility of dry samples vs wet samples...please, if you want to join in here and add something useful, stop rhyming, go back and read all those other posts...you won't believe how all this got started. And also, don't be scared - you can use my name, you don't have to rhyme. Although, those rhymes where kinda funny...definitely got me smiling benignly.

[:)]

WOW. Ok.. I touched a few nerves.

Wet vs dry.. semantics. Fair enough? I think understand the topic just fine. Guy, I wasn't attacking anyone. I was actually trying to lighten things up, whilst offering my own opinion. I just call some things like I see it. I'm not on anyone's side. Btw.. I'm probably more of a pro than you care to jump to conclusions about. [[;)]]

Anyway go make music.. And stop whining.. *Just Kidding*.

Your pal TubeImage. [[[[[:D]]]]] [[[[[:D]]]]] [[[[[:D]]]]] [[[[[:D]]]]]

@Guy said:

I take it that this conversation will stay civil from beginning to end. [:)]

Look when I wrote that sentence. Before all this got out of hands, before the attacks, the insults, the rudeness etc...

Why did I say that? Because it seems everytime someone dares to challenge VSLs slight imperfection regarding the warmth of their sound, people seem to go bananas! "Oh my gosh how can he say that VSL tend to lack warmth???!"..... Well, I'm sorry but that's how I feel, that's what my ears hear and Herb, I'm not at all insecure in saying that to you as much as your product is the best on the market. [:D]


Very well said - I second it.

Kubel,

its all good ! You weren't around when the going got tough...hehe...so by the time you entered here, everybody was on edge already, a very unstable environment waiting to explode....

Cheers !
[[;)]]

@Thor said:

[...] ...the VSL is great, I agree...but if you want to do Lord of the Rings... [...]

There are people silently reading this forum from time to time who know _good_ stories to tell in this respect, believe me. [H]

I thought I heard Epic Horns in LOTR but couldn't really say. I can't imagine there are many A list guys who don't have the library.

Thor
I'll discuss this issue with you further, because there does seems to be a point here that is something new. You mentioned that if you compare reel orchestra recordings, they have an airiness to them, which is a valid point to make. But you know what, that airiness is soft or easy listening. which means if you can control music even more, then you can make a better statement with it. Take mixing for rock & roll for example, you mix for effectivness, which is similar to making the speakers jump. That is what sounds better for that genre, and what causes sales. If you can make speakers jump with clearity in the Classical or Orchestra venue, then thats somthing completely new, and which it is. The Bach VSL recordings on this sight are much more effective and moving than the usual standard recordings of real performances. This is because of the constrained and limited recordings done with a live setting. So here, trying to carbon copy a live real sound is misleading, I think and totaly new. and needs addressing. Then again if you add the surround sound capabilities, thats just around the corner. Imagine taking the woodwinds and making a merry go round effect with them along with the composition. Thats new grounds that I've been waiting for. The future looks exciting. That is if you don't get attacked. I'm getting off know before I get hurt.

Sincerly

@Guy said:

Can't someone make a point here without others feeling threatened?

[in a very soft soothing tone]

Don't worry, I'll look after you.

And apart from that


THIS THREAD ROCKS!!!

@hermitage59 said:

The VI is outstanding, and contrary to what's been said, the standard edition libraries are custom built for the VI, not upgrades.
Alex.

Custom built? Yes?
Using sample material that i already have paid for using? Yes.

seems that there's more than one viewpoint amough the users. [;)]

tele

@Thor said:

well, how many times do you need an Orchestra with no Hall sound - are you gonna record 80 people in your bathroom - come on !!

It makes VSL a great option to use in many contemporary styles, where one would like to be able to have very little ambience.


To me, Chamber Strings are 2nd to none, when it comes to throwing in strings in pop, rock, HipHop, soul, whatsover...

tele

It's cool to see how we've upgraded this thread back to "normal conversation [H] ".

Thanks! [:)] Thanks! [:D] Thanks! [:D]

I guess I'll stay. We all know I'm much too important to leave this forum... [:O]ops: [*-)] [:O]ops:

A few points of clarity regarding recent flames.

1. That Doug guy absolutely railed against VSL's new product as if it's a badly concieved, worthless piece of overpriced junk. This is like a guy who sells telegraphs saying that the new telephone thing is garbage.

2. His remarks were untrue on a factual level and incorrect technically (and obnoxiously shrill.)

3. These comments were said to be "spot on" by the illiustious Thor which is when the trouble began. Even so what was adressed by the VSL users here was the only actual valid point which is the ambient sound on sample librarys: a fair discussion.

4. Mr. Thor (a likable fellow to be sure) thinks the room sound on VSL is sh!t not realizing he's telling all VSL users their music sounds like sh!t by implication. Even so, in my own case the professional world has never come to this conclusion and indeed has commented repeatedly on the extreme quality of the library. So there you have it.

@dpcon said:

4. Mr. Thor (a likable fellow to be sure) thinks the room sound on VSL is sh!t not realizing he's telling all VSL users their music sounds like sh!t by implication.

Oh my! Oh my! Oh my! [[[[:|]]]] [[[[:|]]]] [[[[:|]]]]

Now I understand why people jumped all over me when I also made that same remark in the past. It never ever occurred to me that I was being critical of all the VSLs users and their works to the point of saying what they do is shit??? and I'm sure it's the same for Thor. If people want to stay in their "comfort zone" then there is no room what-so-ever for discussion, I would advise Thor to not discuss this issue on the forum anymore.

Thanks for the clarification dpcon.

Hey guys !

Thanks for bringing the conversation back to a normal tone - it seems the hooligans are gone... for a while I thought I was reading thru my junkmail folder
[:D]

I knew I was starting trouble when I said that Doug's criticizm was spot on...sorry for being such an instigator...but look how it has turned out !! ..hehe

Before I say anthing about the actual subject matter I would like to mention something else. There is an inherent problem when exchanging thoughts or opinions in written form. I tend to exaggerate very often in an attempt to make thinks clearer. What happens though is that somebody will then pick a phrase like "VSL roomsound is sh^t" and builds a whole thread around it and everybody feels attacked. So there is definitely a learning curve for me of how to better convey my own ideas/thoughts/opinions. But somebody will always interpret things into what I write. (or what anybody writes)

Having said that, I honestly don't intend any offense with any remarks of mine (even if it sounds like it...it's just my lack of a better word or phrase often) and yes, I know I am a sarcastic one - I know that. So if you read anything that knocks you off your feet...its probably meant as a joke. (the problem with written language again...) - I only attack those who attack me (and I try to be the greater person from now on...)

Back to the roomsound discussion. I do not think that the VSL roomsound that is married to every sample is absolut horrible shit (exagerration). I would have never upgraded to the proedition if that's the case. And I love my VSL.
I would like to, at some point, use only one library, for simplicity (less loadig, less searching thru samples, writing more music in a day) - right now, I am using three libraries and even though the new VI would allow me to do my entire Violin section on one track - I still will end up with 4-5 tracks after doubling with other libraries which is a great sound that I like and cannot accomplish with VSL and Altiverb alone. I am talking about warmth.

Btw, when I criticize the VSL, I am NOT critizing everybodys music. Great music is great music, even with old miroslav samples. Basil Poledouris is still using those and his stuff sounds great (and Roland Orchestral cards).

I am criticizing the warmth of the sound of VSL. Just like Guy had said...the VSL tends to lack warmth.

I don't want to go on but hear your feedback. How many people would agree with me that the VSL lacks warmth ?
Listen to all the VSL demos - any of them that could be described as warm/ rich orchestral sound...Once again, I am talking about nuances...not it sounds like shit.
Also, I am criticizing the transition between layers in the VSL as well as the transition between 0.5, 0.3 and stacc samples - as heard in the VI Video Demo.

What does everybody think about that Oboe Sustain VelXfade Video VI demo...Do you think it sounds good ? I personnally (and that's my opinion) think that the Oboe sustain sounds only mediocre for a Library that caliber.

If nobody agrees with me, I don't have reason to explain/discuss why I think that is the case which would lead us to the roomsound discussion. Also, I am not talking about the roomsound LENGTH as in decay but quality.

Best,

Thor

@Guy said:

It's cool to see how we've upgraded this thread back to "normal conversation [H] ".

Thanks! [:)] Thanks! [:D] Thanks! [:D]

I guess I'll stay. We all know I'm much too important to leave this forum... [:O]ops: [*-)] [:O]ops:

First of all I'm saying this in a calm voice. (Hard to convey on the internet sometimes.)

I just find it interesting that you seemed to think that I (?) strayed so far off topic.. All of a sudden the thread had gone to s*it.

I did offer what I thought was a valid opinion. Perhaps you where admiring my rhyming skills so much that you missed or glossed over it. [:P] Anyway, I guess my sense of humor is hit or miss with some people. Can't please everyone.

For the record, I agree with Thor on some of his points. He's not a bad guy. Just kinda stubborn like me. [:D]. I just say things out loud other people won't say. As a matter of fact, if I met Thor in person we'd probably hit it off very well.

Aaannyway.

Btw it's Kube (i)mage. Not KubeL mage lol.

@Thor said:

Hey guys !

What does everybody think about that Oboe Sustain VelXfade Video VI demo...Do you think it sounds good ? I personnally (and that's my opinion) think that the Oboe sustain sounds only mediocre for a Library that caliber.

If nobody agrees with me, I don't have reason to explain/discuss why I think that is the case which would lead us to the roomsound discussion. Also, I am not talking about the roomsound LENGTH as in decay but quality.

Best,

Thor

I just went in and watched that particular video again. I'm not actually sure which oboe Paul has used there - Viennese or French.

I think the whole crossfade thing is general though is extremely good and can't really hear or see a problem with it.

You guys,

Every VSL user has given constructive criticism about the library. If someone says it lacks warmth - fine. Every musician I know is always talking about warming things up that are in digital formats. OTOH you can also say that the VSL sound is pristine and that this allows the user to deal with this natural sound in any number of ways. Personally I don't think they lack warmth but are just very immediate with incredible detail and resolution - but to each his own. Warm things up to your liking (which is adding a certain amount of noise or harmonic distortion - no?) We all do that in various ways.

My point is that honest criticsm happens here every day from all of us. The criticsm from that other developer was totally dishonest and flat untrue. The tone of his remarks revealed a very heavy agenda. I thought his remarks were spotty not spot on.

Stick around you guys, you're a lot of fun and have already contributed here so you're most welcome for any sincere dialogue.

@KubeImage said:

For the record, I agree with Thor on some of his points. He's not a bad guy. Just kinda stubborn like me. [:D]. I just say things out loud other people won't say. As a matter of fact, if I met Thor in person we'd probably hit it off very well.

Btw it's Kube (i)mage. Not KubeL mage lol.

...thanks man. We probably would hit it off very well and yes, I am a stubborn...Taurus ! ...hehe
[:O]ops:

@dpcon said:

You guys,

Every musician I know is always talking about warming things up that are in digital formats. ...(..).. Personally I don't think they lack warmth but are just very immediate with incredible detail and resolution - but to each his own. Warm things up to your liking (which is adding a certain amount of noise or harmonic distortion - no?

I agree with you in its core. But I am not talking about analog vs. digital...I am a digital fanatic and don't miss analog at all. And I am not talking about warming things up in the mixing stage. Its like saying, use a cheap mic pre for your vocal and just add warmth later to it. Some things need to be captured at the recording stage or they are gone. Once again, that is my opinion after having fu^ked many recordings and learning from it.

We are in the realm of subjectivity so I am not gonna argue my point any longer...can't argue about taste, right ?

Dpcon, I am very curious about your opinion on that oboe sustain in the VI Video Demo....do you call that pristine too ? I think its the cleanest phasing sound ever recorded...hehe (sorry for the sarcasm) - Do you not hear it ?

I respect your opinion so I would really like to know what you think about it and how a great mixer will get rid of that phasing sound. Well, we could add a lot of reverb but ...we can't, because we are talking about productions where you want your Orchestra to be pretty dry, hence VSL's advantage (recorded dry, ..ish)

Thanks for posting your opinions. This is a great discussion, eh ?

Best,

T

@dpcon said:

Personally I don't think they lack warmth but are just very immediate with incredible detail and resolution - but to each his own.

Is there any chance that some people might have the ear ever slightly more sensitive than others for these things, and these people are willing to help others on this forum by sharing this information without trying to to show any kind of superiority? Could this be an option?

This could easily be interpreted as if I'm saying: All the VSL users are tone deaf except me!(and Thor). I hope that won't be the case!!!
If we don't hear the same thing, obviously we can't undersatnd each other, it's like if we're talking in 2 different languages...

Oh oh...the interpretation experts are right now, stirring up an attack...attack of the clones...hehe

in all fun,

thor

Thor,

I haven't listened to that particular demo but I will and respond.

Keep in mind that up until VSL most libraries had lots of terrible sounding samples. VSL was the first to come out with a library that was virtually 100% usable. There were rare exceptions like the Vienna oboe which everyone complained about so VSL promptly released the French oboe which is lovely. That's why we like this company because they respond to constructive (and even nasty) criticsm.

If there are problems with the new release they will be addressed. Also we have all relentlessly called for a new level in strings because that's the achilles heal in all sample libraries and none of us are satisfied. Herb has announced and epic string session so the ball is rolling.

Yes we have a difference of opinion on the merits of the silent stage. As I said it is a compromise of sorts but not any kind of extreme negative to my ears anyway.

Cheers