Complex yes... and beyond my understanding. I mean would it not make great sense to have the Standard version corresond with the current horizon version. And then the Extended be all the extra stuff.

So when you pay for the standard version of the VI for a given library, not only do you pay full price again, you dont even get a complete VI version of what you already have.

Come on!

Maybe we should explain it that way:

1) The standard library is for new customers, being avaiable everywhere for the same price (including all dealers). Simple for a new customer and for the dealer, including the basic sample for the instruments. Something nice to start with.

2) The full (extended AND standard) library is for registered users. It includes the development of the Engine, ALL samples you have in you registered library + A LOT of new samples in 24bit. And all that for a good price.

Ok. Well I'm glad I was planning on the extended version anyway then [:D]

Christian,
Let's be fair with this.
As listed in the product summary, and confirmed by various moderators in this frenzy of price posting, the standard library is 24 bit, not 16bit. And, contrary to the impression you seem to have, although there may be less samples in the cube standard edition, as a horizon user, you get a far better deal with the extended edition, with far more samples (24bit) and most importantly of all, a VI that automates the tedious process of articulation selection, and makes input from start to finish considerably easier.
AND, even if you stick with the standard edition for some time, you get 24bit PLUS VI.
So it's a complete myth to concentrate on counting samples, and ignore the added benefits of a dedicated VI that is years ahead of anything else.
Handling such a huge and complex library would be beyond most developers, and the VI with it's automated articulation is cutting edge stuff. Add to that the speed control, and ram optimiser. And the mapping alone to bring this to fruition must have been a mammoth task.
Are you really going to be worse off?

I understand you've outlayed for horizon, and it seems to you that, acoording to sample count, you don't get as much in the cube standard edition. But the discount you get on the real bonus, the extended edition, means a great deal in terms of money spent.
I've seen you write some great posts, thoroughly intelligent and open minded in your view on many things.
How about viewing this announcement with the same openmindedness, and seeing all the picture, instead of being drawn into 'counting samples?'

Regards,

Alex.

Hi Alex...

As most people know, I am one of VSL's largest fans. Every chance I get I tell people (on at least 3 major forums) how wonderful VSL is, how it’s my go to library (even though owning lots of others), and explaining people how great VSL customer care is and that their forums are the best around. I have been telling people that they will never loose when buying VSL stuff, due to VSL's upgrade policies. My problem is that I feel I have been involuntarily misguiding some people around here, who have asked if they should buy VSL now, or wait till the SC came out. You see: People like me (and those I have advised to get Pro Ed) actually end up paying more for SC than a new customer. This rubs me the wrong way, since until now I have had complete peace of mind every time I bought a VSL sample, since I knew that in the long run I would never pay more than someone else. That seems to have changed and it makes me sad.

So as someone who really worships VSL my criticism is, believe it or not, out of love for this company and the unique ideals it held (holds?).

However, you seem to think that SC can replace Pro Ed now. For a start it won't all be available until April (assuming that there are no problems) and by the time that the people who recently bought Pro Ed have had time to learn to use it properly, they would have had over 9 months of use of their Pro Ed.

DG

@Anna Watson said:

Maybe we should explain it that way:

1) The standard library is for new customers, being avaiable everywhere for the same price (including all dealers). Simple for a new customer and for the dealer, including the basic sample for the instruments. Something nice to start with.

That paragraph, for reasons I'm not prepared to go into - worries me Anna. That could be construed in many ways from an existing user. Let me just ask - is there going to be be any SIGNIFICANT changes - and new samples - with a particular emphasis on STRINGS - in this library.

Christian,
I know you're a fan, as i've read many of your posts.

And i offer the following in addtion to what i've already written:

In any progressive progress, particularly software, there is a point at which backwards compatability becomes redundant. Someone posted a car analogy in another post. Can you interchange parts between an old ford and a new one? No. They reach a point where new technology is too far removed from old.
And in direct relation to VI, i think the same is true. VSL have spent a lot of time and effort building a VI that automates many of the processes we have all commented about many times. The workflow alone will improve.
If you were to build a VI (and you may be capable of that, i don't know) would you build it for 'older technology', or look forward and try to anticipate what's happening in the future? 24 bit is certainly a step forward, and in a few years time we will look back with some nostalgia and fondness at it, as we rave about 48bit, and 96bit. It's progress. As difficult as many of the criticisms may have been for the VSL team, do they simply stay put, and create a process based on now, and not later? How long would it be before many VSL users start looking elsewhere as other companies produce ever more advanced technology?
And the mapping involved must have been considerable. Do VSL go to that effort for the 16bit technology of now? I will be frank with you, i'd do the same as Herb and the team, and as painful as it might be in the present, look forward and try to give my customers a product that will have a longer shelf life of useability.

This seems to be that point that many companies face, of backward compatibility, and i think, given the little information so far, that contrary to the feeling of many posts, the pricing structure of new technological introduction has been with the present users in mind. The discounts on the extended edition are generous.
And the standard base is not one of disloyalty to users, but that point of complete change to enable the new technology to be introduced as painlessly as possible.
We've all bought software, only to find we're already behind the eight ball, and naturally got frustrated at our poor timing. And let's compare apples with apples.
If a software pack costs £500, and the new version costs £500 pounds, we could rightly say where's our user loyalty discount? You might get 10%. And the software company will be accused of not doing enough.
By percentage, the discount offered to present VSL users on the extended edition is considerably more than 10%, probably closer to 90%.
Isn't that an acknowledgment of loyalty by users?
Yes, you pay for the new technology, and it's your choice if you want to take that step, as it is with every product you buy. I would suggest some of the hesitation and irritation involved is as much to do with the prospect of developing a new way of working as anything else!
Because, without a doubt, the VI and mapped 24bit samples is new technology, and we're all on the progress train again, hurtling along in a new direction!

Regards,

Alex.

It will be clearer when the articulation lists are available. And of course there are many more samples available, for all instruments.

Perhaps VSL would have done better to say:

For existing users of Horizon Solo Strings (or what ever) the upgrade price to the Full version is .... [comment: prize of standard + 30/35] instead of saying - you have to shell out full prize on standard but get extended at reduced price. I think this is the point here. Of course this does not work out with the new product policy, but you could add that for existing customers in a foot note explaining the stuff.

>>AND, even if you stick with the standard edition for some time, you get 24bit PLUS VI>>
Well, personally I also like some features my current samplers offer me, which the new VI does not. Ok, as existing user I can still use the original content with my samplers, but I am not too happy about that. great new features and of course the chance of more great ideas that can be implemented independently from other software samplers, but still - it offers both, advantages and disadvantages.
And of course - if I can pay 400 for standard it is not that big a pain to add another 30/35 I think - the problem for most might be in the 400. But now I understand that the shipped packages include the full version with a standard licence and the possibility to download an extended licence (or buy online better to say) which add to the full licence.

>>I don't know why all these things that have been decided happen to be so complicated...>>
well, why make it simple if you can make it complicated - simplicity is just in the GUI. (What is the KISS - keep it simple, s...)


The new harsh-material is exciting, etc.

best

Hi Alex.

If it were any other company I agree with you. But this is VSL. And I'm suprised that we and up paying more than new customers. I'm not saying that we should have it cheaper. But its been a philosphy of VSL that you should not pay for the same sample twice. This is what we are doing. Yes we get a new VI - and it does indeed look great. And yes we get 24bit samples - not really a feature i'm jumping up and down about but ok - its a nice "feature". But is this alone enough to double the price? IMHO no - so lets hope the newly sampled material really kicks ass (ofcorse it will - but lets hope there is alot of it)

My point is, I can live with the abondoning of "dont pay for the same sample twice" policy.... but in doing so, it should be translated into something where old customers dont end up paying more for SC than new ones do.

Paul. Cant wait - I really hope there is some cool stuff in those lists!

Any idea when we can expect them?

I've yet to see an articulation list that tells exactly what extra we would get that's new. I'll reserve commenting on that until we get more info.

But a bigger problem that I already see with the lib, besides possible pricing issues, is that it's VST. If you
have a huge lib collection built up for Giga for instance, now you'll be forced to have to use both Giga and VST. This is going to be a distaster. Just what we need, another propritary format. The whole reason I don't use my EWQLSO hardly at all is because I have to forgo using giga on a machine if I want to use EWQLSO. It's just not worth dedicating one whole machine to just one lib when I have 100's of lib ready to load in giga in any combination that I may need.

Also, for those of us that use RTAS on our seq machine, we won't be able to use it unless we go through some kind of wrapper (another freaking distaster). At least if they had included RTAS, we would be able to access the lib on our macs and leave
the Giga's on the PC's.
It seems as if the powers that be didn't really think this thing all the way through. Me thinks a lot of VSL owners and current users aren't going to be extremely happy. I know I'm not jumping up and down clapping my hands like an idiot.

Well, two things to one point:

>>t a bigger problem that I already see with the lib, besides possible pricing issues, is that it's VST... Just what we need, another propritary format.>>

I agree with your dislike of propritary formats - I love open formats and always though that was the big + of VSL.
The VSL Instrument is not VST only though - also standalone - so you can run it on a different computer - if you have one (I only use one!). With one computer one can just install and pray. But there is so many things running at the same time, and VSL need an HD by itself anyways (in times of S-ATA HDs have their own busses), so it might not be that bad.

just my thoughts

best

I for one have avoided these new pianos packaged with their own players (the grand, etc.) because of the potential bugs. I have gone out of my way to buy content in the EXS format because IT WORKS all the time. Every update. All the time.

So this indeed has me concerned about VIs. I suppose the hidden blessing here is I won't be able to afford any of these updates any time soon so I'll be able to avoid the dreaded version 1.0 syndrome.

And even if it works great out of the box, what happens when we see Logic 8 or Apple's new OS code named Hyena?

Clark

@steff3 said:

Well, two things to one point:

>>t a bigger problem that I already see with the lib, besides possible pricing issues, is that it's VST... Just what we need, another propritary format.>>

I agree with your dislike of propritary formats - I love open formats and always though that was the big + of VSL.
The VSL Instrument is not VST only though - also standalone - so you can run it on a different computer - if you have one (I only use one!). With one computer one can just install and pray. But there is so many things running at the same time, and VSL need an HD by itself anyways (in times of S-ATA HDs have their own busses), so it might not be that bad.

just my thoughts


best

My problem is as follows: I have several machines loaded with giga. I don't only use VSL, I draw from a vast collection of libs that supply me with all the sounds that I need. i almost always need 3 machines loaded full to do my scoring. If I have to use another format, such as a stand alone VST or Kontakt, I pretty much have to give up an entire machine to do so. This means that instead of getting up to 8 banks of 16 sounds in giga all drawn from a very large collection of sounds, I'm stuck with a hand ful of sounds on VST or Knotakt and now VI.
It's not efficent for those of us that have invested a small fortune on Giga based libs, libs that I might add, have pretty much put and kept companies like VSL in the first place.
I'm not against progress, but I'm not going to shell out a ton of dough for another complete format just because VSL all of a sudden decides that they want to do their own format. If everyone does their own format, we are stuck with a bunch of non intregrating libs. This is the biggest problem I have with EWQLSO, besides the osund. Your stuck with NI if you start using it. You can't use it effectively along with giga unless you want to give up an entire machine. And I don't. It's not worth losing access to all the other great libs I have just to use EWQLSO. It's way too limiting. I own EWQLSO and I hardly ever use it because it's format is too limiting. I don't want to tie up an entire machine for it.

The other option you have is to break up your machines into various formats, which is just as impractical because I don't ever use the same setup for any two scores. I need the flexiblity to access my entire lib across as many machines as I like. It's a major pain in the ass to have to try and calulate if I can get away with X Y and Z libs in one machine while trying to juggle some other format in another.

For VI, my only solution would be to maybe use the VI on my seq machine, G5 and leave the Giga on all the PC's. But this won't work either because VSL decided to use VST. I can't use VST. It doesn't work with my set up, and I'm not about to go change my entire audio system just to use VI. And I can absolutely tell you that a hell of lot of other composers I know in LA use the pretty much the same set up I use. They are RTAS/TDM based hardware with either Logic or DP or Protools as the software.
And the idea of going with a wrapper is horrible. Those damn things hardly work have the time. It's just one more bastardized program to crash and lock everything up. I need more realibilty in my life, not more headaches.

Well, RTAS is not supported I guess - but AU (Logic and DP native) is, and standalone. What does not help you with TDM setup.

I do not really understand the thing with the Gigas - you mean that you do not run enough VIs or VSL libs on one computer / so to use it efficiently you would need to mix mix VI and Giga?
Well, perhaps we should wait for the real world performance, compatibility and how stable the thing is before we get to upset.

best

@steff3 said:

Well, RTAS is not supported I guess - but AU (Logic and DP native) is, and standalone. What does not help you with TDM setup.

I do not really understand the thing with the Gigas - you mean that you do not run enough VIs or VSL libs on one computer / so to use it efficiently you would need to mix mix VI and Giga?
Well, perhaps we should wait for the real world performance, compatibility and how stable the thing is before we get to upset.

best

Exactly. I've amassed a huge Giga lib in the last few yearrs through buying giga libs and by taking my older Roland, akai, and custom libs which I've amassed over twenty years and converting it to Giga via translator. I don't just use VSL for everything I do. It's a great lib, but it's not the end all of everything. As great as it is, it's still missing many articulations, even many basic ones - some of which I've requested in other posts, and many which I have to find and use from other libs such SI or even older libs to cover. And that's not to mention the thousands of instruments and sounds that VSL doesn't cover. Not even close. I mix several big libs just to attain the string sounds I need. The same holds true for brass and all the other groups. I am able to do this using giga. Once we start down the path of closed formats, it's going to cut off the abliity to access a broad range of instruments. No one company does everything, though I think a few of them would like to believe that all you need is them. Imagine the mess if every single company had it's own format? You'ed be stuck with hundreds of different formats to deal with.

The only other format I have currently is a few things by NI. If I had a ton of VST stuff, and didn't require the sounds that I do, it might not be as big of a deal. But you can't really run both Giga and another format on one machine at the same time, so these different formats are creating a world where you have to stick to one or the other.

So now, if I want access to the newer material, which I seriously doubt they will offer up in giga format as well, I will be forced to bring in yet another new format to go along with giga.

At the very least, I hope that VSL realizes that by forcing us out of the format that we've invested a fortune into, they should do their very best to try and make their new format as compatible as possible. In other words, they should offer it up in more than just VST and AU. RTAS should be offered as well.

As a person who has given a huge chunk of money to VSL and invested in their product from day 1, I have the right to speak up and say "Hey, this won't work well for me. This is going to screw up a lot of people who invested a fortune into the VSL who can't really just use VST and AU. Please, consider this and think about what it's going to do to your customer base"