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  4. Editing VI- patches

  • Editing VI- patches

    B
    B
    Hi,

    technical question here [:)]
    (I hope this question has not been answered elsewhere in this
    flood of postings...)

    The video says, the smallest unit on the user interface is the "patch".
    Can these patches be edited by the user?

    boulaki
  • PaulP
    VSL Team
    PaulP
    Hi boulaki,

    patches cannot be edited. They contain waves, layers and rules (Legato, Repetition, Interval Detection and more), and are perfectly preconfigured.

    Best, Paul
    Paul Kopf Product Manager VSL
  • D
    D
    Hi boulaki,

    no, the patches can't be edited. Apart from the mappings being highly complex anyway, there's also the question of copy protection. But you can change certain parameteres of the patches once they're put in a matrix, which makes them playable. So you can also adapt your patches for a piece you're working on without making interminable changes.

    cheers,
    d.
  • M
    M
    Good topic (we're waaaaay ahead of ourselves here...)
    So, if I make changes or personalise something in the matrix, can I save this mod for future recall? In other words, can we make our own "presets"?

    I imagine the answer is yes, and that means that users could upload these mods to a new VSL UserMods area (hint hint) where all users on all platforms could download them.

    The future looks good.....
  • B
    B
    Thanks, Paul and David!
    I am wondering, how much difference then will be between the works
    of different people working with VI.
    Since VI does most of the articulations automatically, there could be
    the effect of "this well known electronic orchestra again...".
    Until now this never has been a positive thing. Ears are getting tired,
    even from the best and most stunning effects and sounds in the world...

    But perhaps things are different with VI and I'm wrong here; I have
    to admit, that my thinking is only based on the videos... not
    very much [;)]
    We'll see.
    (But as for me, I tend to be sceptical....)

    boulaki
  • D
    D
    Wait till you hear them "live"! [H]

    Cheers,
    d.
  • muziksculpM
    muziksculpM
    last edited
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    @Paul said:

    Hi boulaki,

    patches cannot be edited. They contain waves, layers and rules (Legato, Repetition, Interval Detection and more), and are perfectly preconfigured.

    Best, Paul


    The words "perfectly preconfigured" worries me a bit. (Sounds like Rubber Stamped Instruments ?) who defines perfect here ? we all have our own perfect, in reality prefect does not exist.

    I thought I saw some (Attack, Decay, Sustain, and Release) parameters in the Matrix window in one of the Video tutorials, isn't it possible to edit the Amp Envelopes of the instruments ? or maybe adjust the brightness via a filter (Brighter/Darker) or any tonal adjustment knob needed.

    I think we all have differing tastes to how we want our instruments to sound, and hopefully the Vienna Instrument does not just offer us a rubber stamp instrument. (Well, I hope so [8-)] )
  • C
    C
    Bare in mind though, as this is a VST many sonic edits can be made with VST fx and EQ within the sequencer
  • muziksculpM
    muziksculpM
    Applying EQ from the DAW can fix the issue of brightening or darkening a sound, but what about things like the release, and attack time of a sound ?

    Why was this detail not taken into consideration when designing the Vienna Instrument ? are there other means to achieve this that I am not aware of ?

    This can mean a big set-back to the flexibiity of sound design from within the Vienna Instrument, when compared to Konakt 2, Exs24, Or Gigastudio.
  • D
    D
    last edited
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    @muziksculp said:



    I thought I saw some (Attack, Decay, Sustain, and Release) parameters in the Matrix window in one of the Video tutorials, isn't it possible to edit the Amp Envelopes of the instruments ? or maybe adjust the brightness via a filter (Brighter/Darker) or any tonal adjustment knob needed.


    As I said before, you can fine-tune your patches to a certain degree - what you can't do is go down to sample level to change single sounds. For every cell of a Matrix, there's a volume control, as well as faders for delay, ADSR, and release delay. And the Performance control (which works on all the loaded Matrices) also offers a filter and other goodies which can be assigned to Midi controllers so that you can change certain parameters during performance.

    Cheers,
    d.
  • C
    C
    Well there certainly did appear to be Filter, Attack & Release controls, presumably with assignable controllers, as they are right next to the Crossfade fades.

    But perhaps I'm speculating on their correct use.

    Colin

    Edit: Beat me again, thank you David [:D]
  • B
    B
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    @david ender said:


    As I said before, you can fine-tune your patches to a certain degree - what you can't do is go down to sample level to change single sounds. For every cell of a Matrix, there's a volume control, as well as faders for delay, ADSR, and release delay. And the Performance control (which works on all the loaded Matrices) also offers a filter and other goodies which can be assigned to Midi controllers so that you can change certain parameters during performance.

    Cheers,
    d.

    So in the end it's a sophisticated preset sample player... ??
    This is not the way I'm making music.
    How often the only way to fine tune a phrase was adjusting a single
    sample just to the needs of this phrase... to detune it slightly..
    to change the release time of a single sample... this can make a
    phrase really sounding "perfect".
    No patch can be so "perfect" that it can foresee what I want to do.

    On the other hand everybody will basically use the same articulations on the
    same patches. This might result in more uniform output than using the same library ever was.
    Of course the latter is pure speculation by me.
    But I'm not convinced that I need VI [:)]

    boulaki
    P.S. In the end all this is a perfect opportunity for me to purchase
    the pro edition for a good price... thank you VSL!
    (I'm serious here..)
  • PaulP
    VSL Team
    PaulP
    You can detune every sample you play with the pitch wheel for example (maximum 200 cents), you can adjust ADSR for every patch, you can decide whether you want Release Samples to be played or not....


    "perfectly preconfigured" was meant this way: You have the Performance Rules built in, all layers and waves sit at the right places - and still thereĀ“s so much to tweak if you like.

    Best, Paul
    Paul Kopf Product Manager VSL
  • B
    B
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    @Paul said:

    You can detune every sample you play with the pitch wheel for example (maximum 200 cents)............

    you mean:stored in the patch or the matrix cell?
    or "live" as part of the midi file..?

    boulaki
  • PaulP
    VSL Team
    PaulP
    Live via pitchwheel, thatĀ“s the realism, the players also adjust the tuning live...

    You cannot edit the mapping.
    Paul Kopf Product Manager VSL
  • PaulP
    VSL Team
    PaulP
    Although real players donĀ“t do it with a pitch wheel, and if they had one, they would probably rarely touch it.....
    Paul Kopf Product Manager VSL
  • muziksculpM
    muziksculpM
    last edited
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    @muziksculp said:



    I thought I saw some (Attack, Decay, Sustain, and Release) parameters in the Matrix window in one of the Video tutorials, isn't it possible to edit the Amp Envelopes of the instruments ? or maybe adjust the brightness via a filter (Brighter/Darker) or any tonal adjustment knob needed.


    As I said before, you can fine-tune your patches to a certain degree - what you can't do is go down to sample level to change single sounds. For every cell of a Matrix, there's a volume control, as well as faders for delay, ADSR, and release delay. And the Performance control (which works on all the loaded Matrices) also offers a filter and other goodies which can be assigned to Midi controllers so that you can change certain parameters during performance.

    Cheers,
    d.


    Thanks David,

    That is very comforting to know, I was actually referring to the availability of tools in the Vienna Instrument for fine tuning the patches, not deep sample level editing, and this is all that I would possibly need to sculpt sounds to my taste.

    [[;)]]
  • R
    R
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    @Paul said:

    ...patches cannot be edited. They contain waves, layers and rules (Legato, Repetition, Interval Detection and more), and are perfectly preconfigured.


    With all due respect, there is no such thing as "perfect" in this regard.

    Besides, listening to the VI demos clearly give away inconsistencies in timbre/tone (don't know how to describe it better, but perhaps you still understand what I'm talking about) bewteen different articulations of the same instrument (in some examples it jumps all over the place) as well as phasing when crossfading between samples.

    It's great and it's nothing short of absolutely brilliant...sure. But perfect...no.

    If it was "perfect" then the above obvious problems would not exist, especially since it's impossible for users to even try and correct these problems by themselves due to "locked" samples.

    If you do something about the inconsistent timbre and crossfade phasing, then I'll agree you've come extremely close to perfect though.

    I know I probably come off as harsh, for which I apologise. It's just that I think perfect is a very strong word and one to be used with great care.

    R
  • B
    B
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    @Paul said:

    Live via pitchwheel, thatĀ“s the realism, the players also adjust the tuning live...

    You cannot edit the mapping.

    Too bad.
    I'm working with a computer since I do NOT want to play "live" like a real
    player.
    I don't need this kind of "realism".
    I need realism in sound, not in the way of performing.
    I do not have a violin, I have a computer.
    And "perfect" preconfiguration of a patch does not exist. What is perfect in
    one tune or phrase, is not in a different.
    Noone, even not the whole experience of the vienna team, can foresee and
    preconfigure what someone will do musically.

    To have to finetune a single note by inserting pitchwheel events into the
    midifile (and this way detuning other notes in a stack, which listen to the
    same midi channel) is a design and concept flaw in my eyes.

    And when I hear the demos on the videos... I agree with Rodney_G about
    the inconsistencies. I would not want those phrases let unedited trying to
    make the inconsistencies smaller...
    When using samples the only chance to hide that you are not using the
    real thing is working very sensibly on each note and articulation, if necessary.
    I want to be able to choose every parameter for each note... that's why
    I use a sampler and a computer...
    Sure, in many parts this "fiddling" can be replaced by a good articulation
    programm like the one you seem to have written (great idea, btw).
    The problem is: I do not believe that this replacement is possible and useful in all parts
    and for every situation. There must be the option for the composer /producer to override
    the automatic process and do it manually.
    This is crucial for me.

    So now I have the impression that this is not possible with VI.
    I do not believe that a preconfiguration can be so "perfect" that there is
    no more need for editing on a single note basis.

    I personally don't think that a software version of the old ROMplers (the most expensive one ever? [;)] )
    is the right concept for me.

    I would want to have more influence on what I'm working with
    (a total and detailed influence), so that every time I feel not comfortable
    with the way the automatic articulation is interpreting the phrase I have another option.

    Again... all those thoughts are based on very little information. Will there be
    more material available like a downloadable manual or demo versions
    of the program (I mean the player software) in the near future?
    If I had to base my decision on the informations I have now I clearly would say:
    VI is not the right thing for me at the moment.

    boulaki
  • T
    T
    Paul,
    I've read this topic with much interest, and as excited as I am about those new things, I'm also a bit dissapointed.....

    Don't take me wrong, but one of the main reasons why I bought VSL was the fact that it was available for GS, allowing me to edit the patches on the sample-level.

    There are not much, but there were some broken samples in my First Edition which needed either to be edited (in most cases my Wavelab Declicker allready did the job), or completely altered with a pitched neighbour-note.

    In case for the VI's:
    What if we come across a "bad" sample ? We would be stuck with it, cause there's no way to edit those patches on the sample-level, right ?

    .......well, the same dillemma as with EWQLSO.... [:'(]

    Seb