The MIR will most likely contain a set of impulse responses from an orchestra pit, too. Be aware that these won't necessarily sound "pretty" by our ordinary aesthetical measures [:)] , but different and very distinctive.

Great question. From a IR perspective, Dietz and others are far more qualified than I.
From a playing and conducting POV, there's quite a difference.
The sound is funneled (generally) and 'tightened'. That is, from an audiences perspective, it's a little quieter and more central. It does depend on which pit you're confined to but i wll address this in generalities. From a stage perspective, the singers are subject to a change in thier understanding too. A solo singer in a normal performance setting would stand next or near the conductor, with the sound coming from 'behind'. The stage performer with the orchestra in the pit gets it in their face, or more accurately, up their front. The change of perspective is significant, and i've heard many a singer struggle initially with this 'different' way of listening.
For the players too, there is a change. Dynamics are sometimes adjusted to give the audience and performers a complete sound. Instruments normally played with no 'baffle' will ring in a different direction to those played in a pit with acoustical challenges of walls, a tighter seating plan, and the stage, all contributing to a different distribution of sound. As a former conductor of such ensembles i would often go through each piece with the players and make dynamic and seating adjustments to try and get as close as possible to a normal orchestral sound given the limitations. And often, the size of ensemble was, by neccessity of restricted space, reduced, with many players doubling on other instruments. I spent a lot of time re arranging works to try and capture the normal perception of the piece, with less players and some performing some fairly acrobatic changes from one instrument to another.

hope this helps,

Regards,

Alex.

Hello there,

Thanks a lot for your replies! I've got quite a few hints from this thread, so I guess I'll have a lot of fun while experimenting with the sound [:)]


rawmusic: That's exactly what I was looking for! Cheers for that!

Dietz: Can't wait to give a try to MIR

hermitage59: Большущее спасибо, Алекс!!!


Best wishes,

ck

CK I went to the ballet yesterday (Nutcracker) and decided to take specific note of the effect of the orchestra pit and report back. We're talking about a small 500ish audience Opera House which is quite intimate. The things I noticed were:

1. The orchestra were spread widely (left to right) in the pit under the front of the stage, this led to a more extreme stereo effort than you normally get. In particularly, I notice that the Harp on the extreme left was very quiet indeed even in the near right of the auditorium. You'd need to spread your pan very wide to match this.

2. I was extremely surprised that the Contrabass were weak even though there were plenty of them. This seemed to be true for all low frequencies. I presume the sound was going down through the floor rather than up into the audience. I say surprised, because I would have expected the lower frequencies to penetrate the obstructions more easily.

3. Brass came through very strongly indeed, indeed I could tell that they were holding back because even the sounds were extremely clear when they were playing 'mf' without brassiness.

4. Dynamics weren't as pronounced as I expected. I don't know whether this was an effect of the pit, or (more likely) that the orchestra were not varying the dynamics. I suspect that since the orchestra couldn't see or connect with the audience, they would be less likely to turn in an expressive performance.

5. Strings sounds appeared to be quite thin. There wasn't a big string section, but they were struggling to get it out of the pit. I wondered whether the violas had given up and gone to the bar.

All in all the pit sound was great for ballet - you can't beat live music - but I don't think I'd use those effects for VSL material. However, if you were providing music for a video of dancing/ballet etc, then perhaps it might be worth considering fiddling with your settings.

Thanks for posting your observations, Jonathan - highly appreciated!

_________________

/Dietz



PS - always those poor viola players ... [+o(] ... just yesterday I read a really ugly one on the Nuendo-Forum:

@Another User said:

What's the difference between two violas ?
A semi-tone.

/[Dietz ducks and runs ....]

@Another User said:

What's the difference between two violas ?
A semi-tone.

/[Dietz ducks and runs ....]

Ho, ho, ho...

Greetings,


Jonathan Mitchell:


I'm going to re-mix my current project the week after the next, and this comes extremely handy!

I was really surprised by your 4th finding! [[:|]]

Thanks a lot for your observations!



Dietz:

[+o(] [+o(] [+o(]


Here's a nice collection for you:

http://www.ducksdeluxe.com/jokes.html



Best wishes,

ck

@ck said:

[...] I'm going to re-mix my current project the week after the next, and this comes extremely handy!

I was really surprised by your 4th finding! [[:|]]

Thanks a lot for your observations!
[...]ck

OTOH, nobody urges you to make something worse that it is, just because reality sounds like that ... if you like your virtual orchester being _dynamic_, even when seated in the pit, then go for it, I'd say.

@Jonathan Mitchell said:

CK I went to the ballet yesterday (Nutcracker) and decided to take specific note of the effect of the orchestra pit and report back. We're talking about a small 500ish audience Opera House which is quite intimate. The things I noticed were:

1. The orchestra were spread widely (left to right) in the pit under the front of the stage, this led to a more extreme stereo effort than you normally get. In particularly, I notice that the Harp on the extreme left was very quiet indeed even in the near right of the auditorium. You'd need to spread your pan very wide to match this.

2. I was extremely surprised that the Contrabass were weak even though there were plenty of them. This seemed to be true for all low frequencies. I presume the sound was going down through the floor rather than up into the audience. I say surprised, because I would have expected the lower frequencies to penetrate the obstructions more easily.

3. Brass came through very strongly indeed, indeed I could tell that they were holding back because even the sounds were extremely clear when they were playing 'mf' without brassiness.

4. Dynamics weren't as pronounced as I expected. I don't know whether this was an effect of the pit, or (more likely) that the orchestra were not varying the dynamics. I suspect that since the orchestra couldn't see or connect with the audience, they would be less likely to turn in an expressive performance.

5. Strings sounds appeared to be quite thin. There wasn't a big string section, but they were struggling to get it out of the pit. I wondered whether the violas had given up and gone to the bar.

All in all the pit sound was great for ballet - you can't beat live music - but I don't think I'd use those effects for VSL material. However, if you were providing music for a video of dancing/ballet etc, then perhaps it might be worth considering fiddling with your settings.

1) I would doubt that this was a full orchestration of Nutcracker, as the theatre was so small, so depending on the orchestration used the "mix" could be rather strange anyway. Harps are quiet instruments and there should be 2 in Nutcracker; the trouble is that we've all become so used to the "false" mix that is used in films etc.

2) The floor covering has a lot to do with the sound from these instruments. Carpet over concrete pit floor for example.

3) With a shallow pit, the brass are often much further forward than with a full size opera pit, so will tend to obliterate other things, even when playing relatively quietly.

4) Many pit conductors seem to think that all music should be loud, usually because they are told by the Artistic Director that whatever dynamic they are currently performing is not as loud as it should be (presumably compared with the latest chart hit being piped though headphones on the Director's iPod). Orchestras don't try to connect with audiences, they just do their jobs as well as they can. Lack of expression usually has more do with the foul acoustic of the pit, causing players to take no risks in dynamic level.

5) Strings, of all instruments, are most affected by dry pit acoustics, especially if the numbers compared with the brass and wind are not in proportion. For example Nutcracker has 11 woodwind instruments, which should be balanced with about 45 strings. If the orchestration is reduced to 5 woodwind players, then there should be 25 strings or so. Often this is just not the case.

Where did you see the ballet? What was the orchestration? What Company? I'm sorry to appear so interested, but as someone who conducted for the ballet for over 10 years I have a fair amount of knowledge about the subject...!

DG

I find it depends greatly where you are sitting in relation to the orchestra in the pit. Of course, where you sit makes a difference in any auditorium (some more so than others) but the differnces are not as extreme when the orchestra is on stage.

For example the sound when sitting in the middle of the stalls (level of stage) with a direct line to the back of the conductor's head but unable to see the orchestra in the pit at all is very different to the sound when perched directly over them in a balocny to the side at the front.

Also if you are seated in a balcony and are a few rows back you get a sort of letterbox effect where you miss a lot of the ambient noise bouncing around, it can sound very dry, disconnected and annoyingly quiet!

However I love the sound of the orchestra in the pit in my local opera house when seated way up high looking down at the pit from afar - the sound is thrown up like a fountain and it bounces aroung the walls and ceiling up there. This can produce a wonderful soaring effect.

I was away working last week and was alarmed to come back to see a cacophony of comments. For a moment, I feared my comments had spawned another round of viola jokes. As far as I'm concerned, violas are hard done by having to read that funny clef. Getting to the bar before the trumpets is a great achievement!

Some observations and answers on your comments.

This pit didn't go deep so the brass was well forward as DG hints.

I moved about the hall between intervals and H-Bird is dead right. I just wish I was rich enough to afford a box and listen to those fountains of sound he talks about!

As for the production, it was the St Petersburg at Buxton Opera House in the middle of England. Looks like a 2/3 size orchestra. Certainly not 43 violins. It's a fantastically intimate venue. In the stalls, you can believe that if the prima gets dropped, then she will land on you.

Anyhow, good luck with the mixing CK. You will have to post an Mp3 when you're done.