Hi Bill,

License transfers of products that are not available on our website anymore will not be possible.

I think some clarity would be helpful on a few points. I've got a mixture of VI, Synchron-ised and a couple of Synchron products. As I've been buying VSL stuff since Gigasampler I've quite a lot but unfortunately I've less money nowadays than I did (thanks to Brexit). I see the logic of focussing on the Synchron Player - personally I think each has different strengths but the SP is getting better all the time.

Where I think we need some clarity is on the thorny issue of cross-grade pricing. For example:

Years ago I bought the VI Upright Bass Single Instrument, for around €70. Recently I looked at a Synchron-ised cross-grade but the only option is Plucked Instruments, where my personal price is €165 - more than twice what I paid! I'd get two extra instruments, but both guitars and it's far easier for me to pick up one of the various guitars I own and play in the part so I'd never use them. There may be a genre that regularly uses Upright Bass, Concert Guitar and Overdriven Guitar but I've yet to encounter it... 😀 It ought to be possible to cross-grade just what you originally bought.

Then I have all VI WW except saxophones. Cross-grade cost (split into two collections): €145+€127 = €272. This feels a lot for no new content, and possibly not everything I have in VI.

It'd also be useful to know what cross-grade pricing will be like for the things that haven't yet appeared. I have Orch St I and II, Brass I, II and Special... I worry that to cross-grade all my VIs could potentially cost several thousand pounds, for samples I've previously paid for (when I had more money!)

Of course, the other option would be newer Synchron products but I often need drier samples plus, of course, that's another sizeable investment. I hope VSL will make use of the drier second Synchron room, as with the Duality series and continue to offer drier samples as well as the "cinematic/classical hall" ones (lovely as they are).

Please don't get me wrong: I totally understand where VSL are coming from on this so this isn't a "how can you do this to us!!!" moan. I just hope we'll see some accommodation for the most loyal customers, I've been using this stuff for well over 20 years and while I know it'll keep working for a while, there'll come a point where I have to decide between upgrading my OS and losing access to years' worth of investment and projects.

So any clarification or advance information would be really welcome. Let me repeat this isn't intended as a moan and VSL's decision is entirely understandable after so many years, it's just a bit of a worry.

Thanks!

Nick

Hi Nick,

Thanks for posting!

While I can't predict the price for the future upgrade exactly, it will definitely be in line with the other VI to SYNCHRON-ized update pricing. I have "scanned" your products quickly and upgrading all your VI Collections to the corresponding SYNCHRON-ized collections will be around 1000 EUR.

As with all specific requests, it makes sense to contact us directly, so we can share the details with you: support@vsl.co.at!

Alternatively, you can also simply add the SYNCHRON-ized versions of your existing VI products to your basket to check.

I've checked Paul, thank you. Yes, there's no Sul Ponticello legato for the VI series Strings libraries but there's Sul tasto (although a different technique) legato in the Dimension Strings III. Love the idea of the Dimension Strings.

Thanks @Paul - if you've scanned my account you'll've seen I've bought most VI collections over a period of 20-odd years, the majority when I was earning a lot more and that recently I've bought a few Synchron products. However I prefer drier samples (with MIR3D), so with Duality I mostly use the "B" ensembles. I hope some drier recordings will continue to be made in this way.

I speak to Marnix at support regularly (and have mentioned the Upright Bass example); the reason I posted is that I've seen a few "this is a betrayal!"-type posts here and thought it might be useful to say something more nuanced, trying to see both sides. It's tricky, we were told "never pay twice for the same samples" - the corollary of which is that VSL don't offer discounts on similar products with different samples. That's fair enough but begs the question: if I'm not paying for the samples (again) or for the Synchron Player (free), on what am I spending +/-€1000? I don't think there's any new content and some seems to be missing - I looked at the Synchron-ised Chamber Strings contents and couldn't see my favourite espressivo patches. It's even harder where Synchron-ised collections are organised differently (e.g. UP Bass, Woodwinds), and impossible to plan for those that haven't been released yet (Orch Str./Brass/Jazz Drums, all of which I have).

To some extent I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, politely - I hope! - airing questions I suspect a lot of people are thinking about to give VSL a chance to explain, without it getting antagonistic. I can see it's more work updating two different systems. If I'm trying to see VSL's POV, I hope the company will also try to understand that of really long-standing customers such as myself. Realistically there's no way I'll be able to afford to cross-grade everything in a year or two (it took well over 20 to buy them!), especially if I want to buy something new every now and again - and we all like to do that. I'd have to prioritise and abandon some things.

It'd be good if VSL acknowledged those of us who've been loyal but can't afford to cross-grade 20+ years' worth of purchases in roughly a tenth of that time with some kind of tiered offer, e.g. cross-grade three libraries, cheapest is free. Or a graduated discount (1 library full price, 2 = 10% off, 3 = 20%, etc.) There are lots of easy-to-implement options.

Essentially it's about each side seeing the other's POV. I'm trying to imagine what it'll be costing VSL to port and re-edit vast numbers of samples, I hope VSL will consider that when people spend money generally they want something new (something to do with dopamine, I think?) - this is human nature.

Anyway, sorry for the length but I hope everyone will take this in the conciliatory spirit in which it's written. Ultimately I love VSL's samples and will continue using them, but I might have to use fewer as my income's fallen drastically since around June 2016. Can't think why.

All the best
Nick

Hi Nick,

Thanks for your explanation and for your choice of words.

I'm sure that we will offer interesting upgrade offers for VI users in the future, the current special offer is really just about giving everyone a chance to get the products they always wanted at 50% OFF, before we are moving on.

It's true that we had to make a few decisions with specific products that turned out to be not_so_popular, and the re-editing and adaptation of the samples of the VI Series that makes them "fit" into the more complex logical concept of the Synchron Player is the reason why we need to charge an upgrade price from the VI Series to the SYNCHRON-ized Series.
It took us 8 years to catch up, since the introduction of the Synchron Player...

As you mentioned MIR: SYNCHRON-ized products can be used exactly the same way with MIR Pro 3D, they even come with a mixer preset that switches off all additional FX and reverberation ("99 MIR Unprocessed").

I really appreciate your input and also understand the situation you're in. This will also influence further decisions.

Once again: Thanks for taking the time, it helps us to see things from another perspective!

Hello

First sorry for my bad english, i hope everybody could understand...

I agree with Nick for some parts of his remark. After reading the annoucements for the end of VI collection and especially for the end of the support of vienna pro, and read the rest of the message, i understand quickly that we will have to pay more and more for the collections we have already paid, even it was said that we can use the collections after 2025.

It s true, but if the configuration will change (for example evolution of Windows...) .. . 2 solutions : you have to pay another time for synchron ou synchon ized (if this one still exist ...) but what will be the prices ? or you loose your collections and cry...

This week end i bought Harps syncho ized for testing and for 34 euros, because i already have the first and full collection. For the sounds, there are the same on the paper , but i prefer the first collection for the sounds. The only thing of change was Synchron : management of the sounds and some reverberation but for me no need reverberation.

The first question is what we have to pay ? An evolution of the sounds, more differents articulations ? No i think we have to pay only for the evolution from vienna pro to synchron and for me it will be more than 1 000 euros ... incredible price for a software to manage some sounds we already have.

Another question, why can t we have a proposition for single instruments or single collections ? For example upright bass is now with guitar and with an increase price obviously and are we need guitar ? Solo string with con sordino and another violon and cello and you have to pay 335 euros more to have synchon ized if you have only solo string this is my case and i don t need con sordino.

I understand the reasons of this commercial approach, and i think everybody understand, but it could be more compliant for the ancient customers who had the collections VI, to pay only for the evolution of vienna pro to synchon and not for the collection they had already pay and completely outrageous (more than 1000 euros ...) .

For example pay 100 euros for a new manager of sounds why not, if the customers will find an advantage.

I like very much the sounds of Vienna and recognize the work but don 't exagerate. And i hope to be polite.

Have a good day.

It looks like there's no longer a distinction between Standard and Full libraries. If I sold a Standard instrument, would the buyer be able to download the Full content?

Some interesting and temperate comments in the thread thus far. For those of us who have been using the VI series for many years it has certainly been a not entirely welcome surprise even if understandable from the business / future development angle. With some computer / software companies you sort of get used to the idea of some of the packages being transient and subject to relatively short lives. VSL seemed to belong to another tradition, which realistically can't be so.

I have a specific point: it seems at present not possible to upgrade single instruments to synchronized versions. I asked about this since I have Flute 1, Clarinet Bb, French Oboe, and Cor Anglais - and was directed to the Woodwinds package - but that has many additional instruments I'm not sure I need.

Hello!

if the library install size is 100 gb & the sample amount is 300k or 320k, do I need to have 350 gb free space on my ssd or 100 or 120 gb of free space can suffice? This always confused me.

Vivasswan SriHarsha

Hello everybody,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

I'd like to answer a few questions here:

@Bill: It looks like there's no longer a distinction between Standard and Full libraries. If I sold a Standard instrument, would the buyer be able to download the Full content?

A: No, the buyer will be able to download the Standard content, like you.

@Oceanview regarding VI Single Instruments: There is indeed no equivalent to many of the Single Instruments we offered with the VI Series at this point. In the course of the product cycle (more than 15 years), prices have gone down considerably and we have also seen that our customers are often confused by the sheer amount of options.

@vivasswansriharsha: If the library install size is 100 gb & the sample amount is 300k or 320k, do I need to have 350 gb free space on my ssd or 100 or 120 gb of free space can suffice? This always confused me.

A: 120 GB (20 GB headroom) will be enough. The sample number is just additional information. The "Installed File Size" you see at the end of each product page is reliably correct.

My intention in posting the other day was to try to promote a more temperate (good choice of word, @Oceanview) dialogue, having seen things getting a little heated. I think it's better to take a positive attitude, try to understand other people's viewpoints, etc. Re: Upright Bass, as @patdup says, it should be possible to cross-grade VIs bought as single instruments singly. Plucked Instruments is particularly frustrating as it includes three instruments whose pluckability is about the only thing they have in common. I suspect I'm not the only guitarist who bought the UP bass - the real-world instrument is large and many of us have space issues plus it's played in a totally different way. It seems unfair to expect me to pay for instruments I'd never use. Ironically, with Woodwinds, which naturally go together in a way the PI don't, there are Single Instruments cross-grades.

I think it also needs to be recognised that it won't only be VSL who have a lot of work to do: switching from VIPro to the SP also involves a significant learning curve (it took me several months to feel comfortable after so many years) and also a huge amount of reprogramming work. It's not a seamless transition.

Ultimately, while I wouldn't expect VSL to give all cross-grades away for free, there is that thorny question I raised: what exactly are we paying for? This is the crux of the matter from a PR point of view and VSL need to handle it carefully or risk losing a lot of people (N.B. I don't mean myself). Though they still sound great and it's becoming harder to find drier sources now, these are fairly elderly samples now, for which we've already paid, and the Synchron Player is free software. A "cross-grade" isn't even the same as an "upgrade", which suggests getting something new for the money. A lot of people may think "if I've got to learn completely new software, reprogramme all my arrangements and spend a four-figure sum, I might as well get the dopamine hit of something new and look at other companies' products". I'm a very loyal VSL user (as @Paul can attest having seen my account!) but a couple of decades ago I was earning good money, so I decided to invest in the best orchestral samples available at the time. I really did see it as an investment, I knew might not always have that kind of budget. Nowadays I simply don't have €1000 to spend on cross-grades over a couple of years. I'd have to find the money for those essential to my work then, for the others, either do without those libraries or look at cheaper alternatives from other developers. This is not what I want to do but... needs must.

I've always found VSL to be a company that listens more than most and this is fairly fundamental so I'm optimistic they will here. I suspect higher-earning users will already have cross-graded. I thought about it when it looked as though there might not be an Apple Silicon VIPro but was put off by the cost, plus I needed Duality Strings 😜. If I had to cross-grade more than a few old libraries I'd be unable to buy any new ones for a long time (no dopamine...)

Finally, I hope VSL will consider this: while of course the true credit for their success belongs to @herb, Paul and everyone else at the company, they wouldn't've got far without those of us who spent thousands, tried things out, discovered new ways of using the samples, suggested ideas, contributed feedback, helped one another out with problems, etc. etc. We've contributed to VSL's success too - I started with Gigasampler, EXS and Kontakt, then switched to the original Vienna Instruments when that came out, then VIPro and now Synchron Player.

Anyway, thanks to Paul for his assurances that VSL will take this on board, we'll look forward to hearing what they come up with.

Nick

Thanks to Nick for taking the time to express some of these issues. I've been with VSL since 2008. I agree with his point: 'switching from VIPro to the SP also involves a significant learning curve'. With limited funds and past investments I'm currently reflecting on what to do concerning the September discounts and further purchases.

@Paul said:

Hello everybody,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

I'd like to answer a few questions here:

@Bill: It looks like there's no longer a distinction between Standard and Full libraries. If I sold a Standard instrument, would the buyer be able to download the Full content?

A: No, the buyer will be able to download the Standard content, like you.

@Oceanview regarding VI Single Instruments: There is indeed no equivalent to many of the Single Instruments we offered with the VI Series at this point. In the course of the product cycle (more than 15 years), prices have gone down considerably and we have also seen that our customers are often confused by the sheer amount of options.

@vivasswansriharsha: If the library install size is 100 gb & the sample amount is 300k or 320k, do I need to have 350 gb free space on my ssd or 100 or 120 gb of free space can suffice? This always confused me.

A: 120 GB (20 GB headroom) will be enough. The sample number is just additional information. The "Installed File Size" you see at the end of each product page is reliably correct.

Thanks@Paul! That’s helpful. I think I can now look on for what I would like to buy.

Vivasswan SriHarsha

Greetings from Rio!

I have been with VSL since 2011, and share many of the views expressed in this thread. Long- time users, who have invested in the VI Series, are worried about future upgrade costs, what to buy until September 30^th, what to do with the VI Pro projects and so on. However, changes are inevitable and I am certain VI Series users (including myself) will do whatever possible to “synchronize” themselves to continue using VSL’s great products. At this time I would like to place two questions/suggestions, relevant to crossgrades and to some extra time to complete the transition to the Synchron libraries.

1) Would VSL consider extending VI-Pro support beyond 2025? Or, perhaps wait a few more months to see how the transition is progressing before setting a final date to end support?

2) Vouchers

The use of the Vienna Voucher is a good strategy, particularly for those of us outside the Euro Zone. But, could it be more flexible? Could there be a way to use just part of a voucher’s value?

Thank you,

Octavio

Hi,

I’ve been a VSL user since Gigasampler First Edition. I understand the need to change and grow as a business and I’ve adapted with the technology improvements VSL has continued to bring. I really bought into the dry sample concept, as most of the work I do is with very small ensembles. I appreciate the flexibility of moving instruments and using MIR to place the instruments in small rooms, etc.

Synchronized edition updates have been wonderful. It’s the best of both worlds - the dry samples I know in a better interface with more flexible programming, compatible with MIR. I’ve upgraded to all available Synchronized libraries.

I’m concerned now that I’ll effectively be losing the Brass library, as it hasn’t been integrated into the Synchron player. I’ve considered Synchron Brass but I’m not convinced that the room sound baked in will blend with what I do, and the bulk of the library seems focused on large ensembles, which I do not need.

Is there any plan to transfer the Brass library to Synchron player? If not, what alternative is there for dry solo and very small ensemble brass once the VI player is no longer supported?

@leowolfe said:
I’m concerned now that I’ll effectively be losing the Brass library, as it hasn’t been integrated into the Synchron player.

SYNCHRON-ized Brass is still in the making; no worries! 😊

@somcentral said:
The use of the Vienna Voucher is a good strategy, particularly for those of us outside the Euro Zone. But, could it be more flexible? Could there be a way to use just part of a voucher’s value?

Yes, we agree - this is why we have also started offering vouchers in a smaller 50 EUR option. I am afraid, at this point, we can not process parts of a voucher.

Although I haven't got anything in the VI Series right now but bought Colors and played a little now as well. I am not sure I can post anything about here so posted in the Sample Libraries - Synchron Duality Strings. Thanks @Paul & VSL.

Vivasswan Sriharsha

I am certainly not here to talk, as it is obvious reading all the previous posts that VSL is dead set on this and I don’t want to hear any more excuses that frankly do not interest me. Iit is very clear to me that killing Vi-Player is now the definitive moment of promises broken by VSL. It was said that the Synchronized series was merely an alternative and as long as that was the case, it was ok that there are ridiculous fees for the crossgrade. It is clear now, that this was not the truth and I actually expected this to happen. Further, the promise that users would never pay twice for the same content has now been broken and any reasoning questioning that is splitting hairs.

I bought around 70% of the Vi series and also the entire Synchron Percussion and half of the strings plus some more stuff. My only influential vote in this matter can be with my wallet, which is why I am gonna say this here: I am not going to buy any more VSL libraries as long as there hasn’t offered a free crossgrade to Vi-Series owners to a player that will continue to be supported in the future for the samples they already bought. If that is not done, I just don’t consider my money invested safely in VSL products.