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  • Why sounds the middle c like a Octave higher??

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    Hi,

    I know, i am not realy loved by VSL. I had some Discussions in the Past about "Phasing" Sound of the Tutti Synchron Librarys Preset, esp. on the Elite-Strings. VSL explained that with "so many Layers in the Tutti. However..

    But after accepting this, i noticed that the middle c is sounding more "prominent", also a half db louder and somehow as there was be played also a Note one Octave higher. {Edit: That happens also in individual Sections.} I tested it with the different Mics like "Room-Mix" and all the optional mics. Its on all Mics.

    First, my Intention was its about the Change between Strings (thats by the Way also not anymore possibel to dictade on which string it should be played like in VI-Pro2). But its only on the middle c.

    Do anyone have the same Experience?

    Unfortunately there are no Option in Synchron Librarys anymore to do "Crossfades" between the different Instruments, like it was possibel in VI-Pro2.

    Anyone some thoughts to this too?

    Thx

    Ron


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    I only have Duality Strings and not the other VSL string libraries, but have you considered that the area around middle C is louder because that register is the only register that all sections of the orchestra could play in simultaneously? It's about as high as the double bass can get in Duality (sounding an octave below) and is in the lowest register of the 1st violins and second violins. So because of this, I would expect the notes from G3-C4 (middle C) to be the loudest in a tutti patch because that is the only region of the keyboard that all sections are able to play in. Once you get out of that small fourth, you lose that "bump" by having all 5 sections of the orchestra in. It's also in a very stong register for the violins and for the cellos, with the G string on the violins being quite powerful, lush and dark, and the cellos being very powerful and lyrical on their A string.


  • Hi mducharme

    Thx for your interest in this!

    @mducharme said:
    only have Duality Strings and not the other VSL string libraries, but have you considered that the area around middle C is louder because that register is the only register that all sections of the orchestra could play in simultaneously?

    @mducharme said:
    only have Duality Strings and not the other VSL string libraries, but have you considered that the area around middle C is louder because that register is the only register that all sections of the orchestra could play in simultaneously?

    In short, that happens (also) in the individual Section with no overlapping Sections. AND its only this one middle c. Not on c# or b or what ever.


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    Here is a Example of the (only) Elite VI2, Detache from f4 down to c3 chromatic with velocity crossfade not moved, same Velocity:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CTgPssO8Zlv-H3-xq_DWOzK8EGDJWuhV/view

    I dont say thats wrong. I am interestet why it is like that.

    I would be happy if its about me and i am doing or understanding somewhat wrong..


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    I don't work at VSL. But I can imagine that the problem is when you have to process 1000s of samples and that, starting with the recording and then the editing, certain differences arise between individual tones, as you are now discovering. I can only recommend that you try out other libraries. You will notice significantly larger differences - also in the sound between the tones. In other words, the regularity that you obviously expect is obviously extremely difficult to achieve. Just imagine if samples are recorded over several days. Maybe you noticed that an octave had to be recorded again... Getting the exact same position, the distance to the microphone is incredibly difficult. Even if the volume of the sound is correct, the sound may still be slightly different... Maybe there will be other objects in the room later... and that's just on the recording side...
    ------------------------------------------------
    How do you as a user deal with this?
    A) It seems that you are a user who most likely produces music via a music notation program. Even though I've been producing music (mainly with VSL samples) for 20 years now, such differences have never bothered me because I adapt each subsequent note to the previous one anyway. This can actually only be done perfectly in a DAW (and Dorico).
    I recommend that, if you haven't already done so and the musical result is important to you, you export a midi file from the notation program and then produce the music in a DAW. If you want musical results, no note should be played as loudly as the previous one. In this respect, such minimal differences between the samples are not a problem.

    B) If you want to work with samples, the basic requirement is that you have a relatively large tolerance. Because the samples are basically dead materials, if you, for example, play a new "a1 staccato" 3 tones later, the same sample is called up as before, and you also have, for example, exactly one legato (no warm, no sad or emotional one) and, above all you are completely limited in the number of ways you can play. In addition, you have all the little technical errors that you notice again and again.

    So you have to accept all these limitations and mistakes and still try to play this completely limited instrument (samples) with such virtuosity that it becomes music. And I don't mean music with 0.25dB more of something, no - i mean just music.
    The recipe is to keep the whole thing constantly moving: the tempo, the volumes, the articulations, the dynamics, the filter curves - just as much as possible. When you hear this, you probably realize that minimal differences within an articulation aren't that bad. Of course, it's bad when a certain sample has an error that you then recognize over and over again. Of course that doesn't work. VSL is really perfect in this respect. But this also means that the individual samples have to sound fairly neutral.

    Of course, all of these constant changes should be done in such a way that the music ultimately comes as close as possible to what it could sound like in real life. All the users have to decide how far they want to go with the effort.

    C) Personally, I push the effort to the point where about 90% of what is possible is achieved. For the remaining 10% you would probably have to put in the same effort as before. But what I do and what is definitely a gain in quality: I convert all the instruments into audio files (without effects) and then create the orchestral mix with these audio files. In this way, I can, for example, bring individual tones that are too quiet to the necessary volume - using mixing automation. Of course there are a lot more possibilities.
    ----------------------------------
    I don't know if you like all of my answers. I simply told you about my access to the samples. I am thrilled without any ifs and buts and have been for over 20 years. If there are mistakes and inappropriate sound errors, I try to hide them somehow, or solve a section of music a little differently.

    Some examples

    All the best and a lot of success

    Beat


    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
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    Hello Beat

    What a Surprise, Mr. Kaufmann, which honour! I know you from your maybe 20 Years old Workshop. By the Time with the Horizen Series.;)

    Thanks a lot for taking Time..

    Circumstances:

    The Main Point of this Treath was, to not spend anymore Time with this Technical aspects. I only know VSL as a Orchestral Library realy. I know there was something with "Orchestral Canvas" (dont remember the Name exactly) or of course later Kontakt and all this Stuff. For me it was the Fact, that i dont liked the Sound of Software Synths. Hypersonic, Fm8 and all that, ioi. It was interesting but wasn't realy satisfactory. Also i didnt had the Money for the analog synths. So i gave Solo Strings later the Dimensions a try. The Dimensions was perfect for my Pop/Rock oriented Music, cause there was in my Opinien a more consistent Sound of the whole Library and of course the ability to have a dry Sound. The Fades in the Keyrange and the Repetitions was also very handy to me. I tryed out the Synchronized Versions of the Dimensions (before i knowed the Synchron Player more accurate). But a lot of Individuality and Flexibilty is gone. Know i own the Synchron Brass I and all the Strings, not Duality or newer. (Duality does one Step "back" to what whe have with the Dimensions.)

    Approuch:

    Not as you Assumed, i never would write Notes. Only in the other Direction. I Play all my Sequences and Lines by Hand with a Doepfer LMK2 and several (Foot/Controllers). I had a Tutti Template with the Dimensions where i could reach the most importend (Basic)-Artikulations with one Keychange. In retrospect (or if you have enough Fingers free) you can refine in the sam Matrix quite all Artikulations.: [https://forum.vsl.co.at/topic/58292/matrix-vs-sp-tree?_=1702925901264} I am working on a quite similar System for SynchronPlayer. The provided ExpressionMaps never satisfied my Recording Aprouch. I will uploud a example when its done.

    When you playing live it is maybe in the nature of things, that it comes very obvously that one Note is quite different to another espacialy in regards the Pitch and or Volume/Loudness. I understand that i have the Possibility to manipulate that later. But the Feeling inbetween playing the Lines suffers a lot.

    But if i know there are still nothing "better" or more "naturally" then VSL, i have to be satisfied. The Main Problem is, that VSL always talk around the Facts. And that is not written anywhere, that there are some Problems with this inconsistent Recordings and also that the Tuttis sounds Phasie, and you do not have the ability to do Crossfades in Volume like with the VI-Pro2 to solve that.

    I understand your Answers and the Fact that it is a big Thing to do all this Recordings and Editings. I maybe had the Hope that there would be some Updates like in the earlier Librarys, cause in the editing where mistakes or what ever. But i gave it up to consult VSL about things like that.

    But now, no one better could answer my Questions then, Beat Kaufmann.

    Thanks a LOT my Friend and let us try to do the Best whe can.

    Example:

    https://soundcloud.com/createartrecords/am-selbe-ort-instrumental

    Done with Dimensions..

    In Great Respect

    Ron


  • Hello Ron
    Thanks for your long reply. Yes, I also realise that of course everyone has their own music production applications and therefore different problems. The subtle differences in volume with the same touch but different notes can perhaps be minimised somewhat by limiting the dynamic range. But I would have to try it out myself. I can also imagine that it's quite tricky to play samples live to get a good result. For me, music with samples has only been created with the mouse and/or a step-by-step keyboard for 20 years and never in a live situation.
    Despite your problems - the result you posted with the link - you can't hear any of it. Everything sounds perfect. Congratulations.

    Here are a few audio examples of mine.
    Samples can sound and be used in so many different ways when you compare our examples, can't they? Great!

    All the best, my dear

    Beat


    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
  • Hi Beat

    Thanks for the Answers!

    @Beat-Kaufmann said:
    Samples can sound and be used in so many different ways when you compare our examples, can't they? Great!

    Of course! Thats why the Dimensions fitted for my so well. By the way, the Example i postet was created with the Dimensions not with the SS. There i have no "loud C" like in the SS. Thats the Reasen why i thinked that something is wrong with the SS.

    If VSL would tell me, thats maybe not perfect done in the Recording or editing i would accept that. But talking around the main Theme let my in the Dark and costs my a lot Time to figure out whats about eg Libary Instalation wrong Midi Controller Problem and so on. And when they try to give the Problem back to me, i am not very "amused". And if i would know that on deciding wether i should spend Money on this Products or not, i would be thankfull.

    But Great Work anyway VSL. I will find a Workaround.., but why i need always Workarounds?

    Thank you so mutch Beat!

    I wish you a good Slip to 2024 all the Best in the New Year!!

    Ron


  • From your audio the "problem" is on the C# too and not just the C.

    I notice this is happening right at the transition point from one of the weakest strings of the violin (the D string) to one of the strongest (the G string)


  • Thx mducharme..