Ok, first of all I'd like to say it sounds great and the mix is really sweet!
Congratulation to the author.

Unfortunatelly that was not to what I was referring to at all. This type of tempo and orchestration is about the only way to have decent strings.

I am talking about A D A G I O. L---O----N----G-----N-----O----T-----E----S

Something in the style of Cavelleria Rusticana. where the strings are omnipresent, expressive, transparent, soft as well as loud keeping the intensity. That is a HUGE part of romantic film music, and it's impossible to do (at this moment) with VSL.

Do you have other examples? And I'm not being sarcastic.

Guy, obviously you have a certain expectation about _how_ a string section is supposed to sound - which is a good thing. All I can say is that there are so many examples about sweet-sounding, slow movements in our demo-library that it is hard to believe that I could point out another one that offers you a completely different point of view.

But anway: My favorite pieces would be all the slow tracks by Kuno Schmid, especially "Meditation", and the excerpt of Mahler's "Adagietto" from the 5th symphony.

-> http://vsl.co.at/en-us/67/3848/3969.vsl
-> http://vsl.co.at/en-us/67/3920/4526.vsl

But in the end, it is quite possible that you are heading for a much more processed, muffled sound, which isn't covered by these examples.

I'm starting to see that this could become a delicate issue for some, although the last reply by Dietz was ok. I'm not going to argue this any longer since my comment was not meant to become a debate but simly something constructive which I was hoping VSL could improve in the future. I don't see what's wrong with that. The last 3 excerpts suggested is once again not what I'm referring to, although they sound terrific! But I'd be kidding myself if I said the strings sounded terrific, they sounded ok but somewhat harsh to my ears, (and that is not even the slow mov. I was thinking)especially compared to real strings. If VSL is going to call it: "STRINGS" my reference will be "real strings", as simple as that. It does not mean I'm not happy with what they have achieved, I'm the first in line to get more. So back to the warmth issue, there is a lack of warmth with the strings, and to me that translate in having a cold sound. Slow strings is such an important part of film music: look at "Adagio for strings" by Samuel Barber in "The English Patient". Ok this style of music may not be everybody's cup of tea but it is mine and I wish that was possible with VSL CONSIDERING EVERYTHING ELSE IS QUITE CONVINCING, but it isn't and I've yet to hear examples of that.

@Guy said:

[...] I don't see what's wrong with that. [...]

Guy, you've got me the wrong way. I didn't say that there's something wrong with your point of view, quite on the contrary. I just tried to express my understanding that your taste is a specific one, and that you won't be convinced by _any_ of the pieces on our demo-site.

All the best,

No problem Dietz, I was more specifically getting back at William especially before he edited his long post, it was totally misinterpretating something that was not meant to be a putdown, that's all. But I will work out this issue on my own. Meanwhile "romantic strings" sounds good! Is this something new?

Cheers!

@Guy said:

Slow strings is such an important part of film music: look at "Adagio for strings" by Samuel Barber in "The English Patient". Ok this style of music may not be everybody's cup of tea but it is mine and I wish that was possible with VSL CONSIDERING EVERYTHING ELSE IS QUITE CONVINCING, but it isn't and I've yet to hear examples of that.

A very important part Guy - unfortunately, at the moment, there is no one out there as a sample developer that can make this particular string sound the way you and I and everyone else wants it. That particular sound is near damn impossible to achieve through samples at the present time. Believe me. I have tried to get it and talked about it others to the point of death - it's just not available yet - if ever.

...

? [*-)] nice?

I think it's worth remembering when critisising VSL how hard the people who made it actually worked and how dedicated they are. Sure they're getting paid but money isn't everything I'll bet that most of the people involved did it at least as much for the love of the project as the money, in fact if they're like me, they did it primarilyl for the love of the project, and the money was just an excuse to be able to do it. My point is, if anyone is going to critisise VSL they might do well to bear that in mind, because although VSL is at the end of the day a product and a business, and diplomacy is a pre-requisite for the VSL team, they are still going to have emotional reactions to certain critisisms if they are made in a way that seemingly ignores and gives no credit to their hard work and dedication. No names here, I'm not talking about anyone in specific, not even in this post as such more of a general thinig I noticed of when people critisise VSL here on the forum, which is read by the VSL team, it seems that they tend to think that, just because it cost money (money that is in line with it's demand, and quality and size - and money that will be put toward it's future development) they can be as sharp or blunt as they like. Having said that, more string sounds - always good and the romantic strings idea for something down the line - also a good idea. VSL are going to always need to continue to expand the series to keep at the top of the game and that is what makes it such a fantastic thing - that it's not going to succumb to the obsolesence of other sample libraries, it will always sound different as the pallette grows and with that expansion more choices and combinations of sounds. Imagine series on top of series of sounds all with differen tonal and musical qualities that could be blended together anyway you choose - a second pro edition with a whole different quality of texture and ensembles, and choirs, to give vastly expanded tonal possibilities 5-10 years from now.

Well, that's my 22c ramble worth.

Miklos.

Well said Miklos.

It's too often the case that consumers assume as they're paying, those who produce a product are fair game for comments that you wouldn't normaly say to anyone. As if being business owners and employees makes them second class citizens.
It's not the case, and common decency costs nothing.
And as an objective fact, the sample count continues to grow, MIR isn't too far away, and going on veiled comments by various members of the VSL team, they all work hard, and don't rest on their laurels.
Given the continued good spirit, and democratic tolerance with which this forum is managed, we have a good place to come and swap ideas, compare notes, and waffle on to each other about all our pet subjects.
I can say, being housed in a small flat in Moscow whilst away from home, studying and teaching, the forum and its members has become a welcome respite from the rigours of the day.

Life is good!

Regards,

Alex.

*This red part has been written on a later date: I made an error when I said it was the VSL people charging $260.00, it was the "Apple" techincal support people. My sincere apologies to the VSL staff.

What is this, a salesman convention? Wait! I must put the 2nd mov of Rachmaninov's 2nd piano concerto, I cried all the through reading npower88's post. [:'(] Let me tell you something pal: A few month ago, the team I was part of needed one, just one piece of information from *VSL technical support. But the music supervisor had to spit out $260.00 to get a technician on line, only then he will talk to you. This was after he had bought tons from VSL, and for a whole team! But they claimed that they provided the help to set you up, after that it will cost you. Okay, but $260.00 for one question, this was highly important to us, and they had no sympathy what-so-ever. We were EXTREMELY DISAPPOINTED with that response. SO DON'T MAKE ME CRY! This is NOT the kind of trashy talk I want to post, but you're forcing me to defend myself! Computer and sofware companies are interested in making money, not to help you out. How naive! Of course my car is of very big service to me, but the company is not doing it because they are heart broken to see me walk around town.
And it doesn't mean there not going to build cars to my liking.

Now I will put on Feelings.[:(]

Anyway, I've pretty much had it with these remarks, I stand behind what I said.

I'm out.

And I agree, LIFE IS GREAT!

AS I said I wasn't specifically talking about your post but the general tone of some critisisms that while often had a good basis in point, were put forward with an emotional tone that was over the top.

I've bought the pro edition, VSL have always been very helpful to me, both when I was setting up and months after through this forum and the response has always been timely. I've never had to pay money for it.

Of course they're set up to make money, they have to, it's how this can be possible, read my post again maybe you will see what I was saying, I think you misunderstood me. It wasn't intended to be a tear jerker [[;)]]

Miklos.

Yeah, some good points there by Miklos & Alex.
A number of well-worn phrases could be used here:

1. "You can't please all of the people all of the time".
It takes an inordinate amount of time, energy and expense to produce libraries and sub-libraries such as these. We can't have everything NOW, and the team have done a fine job in providing us with a whole load of great material to be going on with.

2. "Patience is a virtue".
In time I'm sure VSL will get around to many more of our requests, but I don't deny it's a good idea to mention these things. Like any company, they would be foolish not to listen to their customers, but each project/sample set will no doubt be prioritised according to it's marketability.

3. "Don't bite the hand that feeds".
Let's treat the team with the respect they fully deserve. It might be that they'll eventually get fed up with our whining and call it a day. That would be a great shame. We have a fantastic thing happening here, a little gentle encouragement will go a long way.

4. "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush".
I don't have a deep and meaningful explanation for this one - I just thought I would throw that one in! [:D]

FWIW, I'm kind of with William on this 'warmth' issue. I think it's far more to do with the orchestration and production (EQ, reverb, layering of smaller ensembles etc.) on a piece, than any shortcomings in the VSL recordings.

It could perhaps be made easier to achieve the sound Guy is after if we had a true 2nd violin section (which has been mentioned before). And/or a selection of longer recordings of continuous bowing for each note of a smaller ensemble, ready for layering up to create a full and rich string sound. Or as Alex has suggested elsewhere, to have some kind of audio manipulation software which could generate multiple layers from a single pass.

Now come on Dietz, stop slacking, I want to see this in the shops by tomorrow at noon! [6] Don't spend too much time on the packaging [[;)]]

Colin

...

Well I'm glad your friends including Ghandi(cwillsher) are supporting you.
I think your getting a little histerical now... cool it!

Regarding "The English Patient" I never said the "Adagio" was written "FOR" that movie, Barber was already dead! Dah! Why don't you look at how I originally wrote it before misquoting me.

Dietz response to my original comment was very satisfactory to me, I guess that's why he's moderator. Why couldn't we have just left it at that!
Seems now people are taking turns in making me look like some trouble maker.

I've must of praised VSL many times on this forum and then, one little criticism and it's blown totally out of proportion and misquotes, just like the "The English Patient".

@Guy said:

Ghandi(cwillsher).

[:D]

@Another User said:

look at "Adagio for strings" by Samuel Barber in "The English Patient".

No real point but - Adagio for strings is not even featured in The English Patient. [:D] Not that it changes your argument though... [:)]

I don't understand how this thread has even got to this point. I'll be perfectly honest and say I thinks there's been some confusion regarding what is perceived criticism - I don't really see any from Guy. Just questions that are perfectly feasible, albeit slightly out of sync because over time he may have missed many, many conversations about Strings and sample libraries.

Bottom line is this for me at least: Sampled 'STRINGS' as opposed to other orchestral instrumentation has got to be one of the most difficult to get right. All the people who use string samples, particularly myself, have major problems getting it to sound the way they want it. One of the reasons may be high and unreasonable expectations compared to what one hears on TV/Film or CD.

Currently, string sound will only ever be a either a good or poor facsimile of the the above, dependent on variable quality of the library used and the person that's using it.

For example - here's a typical instance of 'you can't please all the people all the time'. In the September issue of of SOS, an article on Nainita Desai, who writes for film and tv, where she says, and I quote:-

"I recently bought the East West Quantum Leap String Orchestra, and found it to have a richer, fuller sound than the Vienna String Orchestra. which has a more European feel. The QLSO sound is also quite popular with clients who have described the scores I've used on it as sounding more 'Hollywood' or 'commercial'.The Vienna library is amazing but it's strength is also it's weakness because the possibilities are endless in terms of things like playing techniques. The QLSO is easier to use and that saves time:.....I am putting QLSO on everything!"

Source: Sound on Sound -September 2005

What does everyone think of that? And don't shoot me - I'm only the messenger - I never said it and don't necessarily subscribe to it.

But it shows there are many different points of view from many music writers across the board.

And trumpets are a devil to get right too!

[:D]

@PaulR said:

"I recently bought the East West Quantum Leap String Orchestra, and found it to have a richer, fuller sound than the Vienna String Orchestra. which has a more European feel. The QLSO sound is also quite popular with clients who have described the scores I've used on it as sounding more 'Hollywood' or 'commercial'.The Vienna library is amazing but it's strength is also it's weakness because the possibilities are endless in terms of things like playing techniques. The QLSO is easier to use and that saves time:.....I am putting QLSO on everything!"

Source: Sound on Sound -September 2005

What does everyone think of that? And don't shoot me - I'm only the messenger - I never said it and don't necessarily subscribe to it.

[[:D]]

In some ways this is correct IMO.

However there are a few things to bear in mind.

1) QLSO always sounds the same (as far as I've heard), which is very limiting as far as different styles are concerned.

2) VSL does require more knowledge of mixing techniques regarding reverb/placement etc. so many composers are not up to the challenge. Using something that requires less effort is much quicker and probably more successful for many people. I think that one does need to know something about orchestras in order to use VSL successfully, and if a composer is too lazy to learn to read music, then they are unlikely to bother to study orchestration to any degree either (can of worms alert [[:|]] ).

3) Many clients wouldn't know a crotchet from a hatchet and are likely to be comparing what they hear with the traditional "sampled" string sound [[:D]] If the sound is compared with real orchestras then I would say that VSL has the edge.

Just a few thoughts while I'm trying to avoid work.

DG

@DG said:

2) VSL does require more knowledge of mixing techniques regarding reverb/placement etc. so many composers are not up to the challenge. Using something that requires less effort is much quicker and probably more successful for many people. I think that one does need to know something about orchestras in order to use VSL successfully, and if a composer is too lazy to learn to read music, then they are unlikely to bother to study orchestration to any degree either (can of worms alert [[:|]] ).

3) Many clients wouldn't know a crotchet from a hatchet and are likely to be comparing what they hear with the traditional "sampled" string sound [[:D]] If the sound is compared with real orchestras then I would say that VSL has the edge.

Just a few thoughts while I'm trying to avoid work.

DG

Hehehe Daryl - this could turn out to be one of those fun threads. So true as to the above in a lot of ways.

I'm off to the golf course - I'm getting well out of the way of this one!

[[:D]] [6]