Ok, I should be more specific, I find that all VSL instruments tends toward coldness, but the ones who suffers the most are the strings. But I agree with you Paul, other important factors could be at the source of this problem. But the bottom line is reaching "close" to the warmth of real strings. Vibrato for example is nearly impossible to match; a violinist who's been doing this all his life, not one note has the same vibrato, expression, etc. and even if you do it youself: pitchwheel or other, your ability to do a perfect vibtato is unlikely. That's the difference between an average violinist and a good violinist, the latter will obtain much more warmth. If anybody has good tricks for that I'd like to hear from them, I know I've had many challenges in that regard. But to be realistic, with all the variants possible with the violin, all contributing to having more warmth we would probably need the entire total VSL memory for the strings alone!

Guy

The other possibility, of course, is that the client was absolutely right and it DID sound too real! Sometimes a synthy string sound is right and sampled strings are totally wrong. Obviously I'm not talking about orchestral music, but for instance a lot of older hip-hop would sound laughable with VSL strings instead of Casio.

I'm one of the unfortunate few who missed out on the delights of casio.

But as heavy and unweildy as it was, i still miss the fairlight. Ahead of its time in many ways.

Regards,


Alex


[H]

@Nick Batzdorf said:

The other possibility, of course, is that the client was absolutely right and it DID sound too real! Sometimes a synthy string sound is right and sampled strings are totally wrong. Obviously I'm not talking about orchestral music, but for instance a lot of older hip-hop would sound laughable with VSL strings instead of Casio.

But in that case wouldn't we be talking more of a pad? Of course there are 20 million pads, but some resemble strings without that classical sound: You know, that thick luscious pad...

In this case, just for the record, the arrangement was of "If I Loved You" from Carousel, and was intended to sound orchestral. I guess she just needs time to adjust and to let her ears become accustomed to hearing real sounds, just like I needed to.

@Guy said:

Ok, I should be more specific, I find that all VSL instruments tends toward coldness, but the ones who suffers the most are the strings. But I agree with you Paul, other important factors could be at the source of this problem. But the bottom line is reaching "close" to the warmth of real strings. Vibrato for example is nearly impossible to match; a violinist who's been doing this all his life, not one note has the same vibrato, expression, etc. and even if you do it youself: pitchwheel or other, your ability to do a perfect vibtato is unlikely. That's the difference between an average violinist and a good violinist, the latter will obtain much more warmth. If anybody has good tricks for that I'd like to hear from them, I know I've had many challenges in that regard. Guy

Don't worry - most of the members of forums and buyers of ANY string library know exactly what you mean. I remember watching a TV concert of a Russian orchestra recently playing a selection of Tchaikovsky - to get that string sound - and we're talking extremes here - is nigh impossible with samples at the moment I would guess. There aren't really any tricks that I know of to get the sound you and everyone else wants at this time.

Just so as there's no confusion - it's actual sound we're talking about here - as opposed to the so-called 'hollywood sound' which is an entirely different thing and is all to do with writing and orchestration.

Oh well, Raw, it was just a theory. [:)]

You're right, the client's a moron.

But in all honesty, there are times to let the client win and times when you're losing integrity by not putting your foot down - such as when the client is being objectively moronic. People don't respect a lousy attitude, but they do respect integrity in my experience.

...

@William said:

Perhaps sometime VSL will create a "Romantic Strings" Horizon Library. This would be nice to supplement the great sound already attainable, and have (maybe, in my dreams) a very fluid pianissimo legato - like the current beautiful mp horn ensemble legato, soft and lyrical, as well as a surface sound of more audible but "tender" (teneramente) vibrato. Lyrical vibrato, as opposed to intense espressivo vibrato already available. Of course the Chamber Strings are close to this, and one can obtain these effects by using the samples right now, especially in layers, but they are not as instantaneous as this fantasized addition might be.

I am curious if other people here have any interest in this sort of addition? I admit it is less crucial than the ones being done now and would be along the lines of a "supplemental" sound.

Absolutely Bill and we've talked about it many times. I think your idea to call them Horizon Romantic Strings is an excellent one and will it be ready by Christmas?

And can it be done?

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@William said:

I disagree with the statement that all the VSL instruments tend toward coldness. The brass and winds do not, and certainly not the percussion. Cold timpani? What would that be?

I think in a few years the overall sound of VSL will improve in warmth.

But I may of generalised too much when I was really referring to the slow strings. Please someone show me an excerpt, sample, demo of a slow expressive string passage. I have yet to hear anything convincing from VSL. And it's really a shame when you think of everything else it could do!

...

I think the strings have a very good combination of all the elements necessary to create what is essentially the best possible generic library that will work for a wide range of uses and composers. in that, it's perfection in my opinion. It has warmth, but not too much - as much as would be desirable. If you want more, maybe they'll release other samples in the future, or buy some supplemental strings. I think it's hard to critisize VSL in technological advances and musically at this point in time.

Miklos.

If VSL is going to have an open forum I hope it's not just to have mutual admirations, I hope we have the right to some critisism. VSL is VERY EXPENSIVE, and if I'm going to give them $6000. and more..., I have the right to say that the slow strings do not sound at all like real strings. And I'm hoping that this kind of comment will NOT be interpreted as a putdown for VSL, I haven't stopped praising it!

The best reference is real strings, I couldn't find "The Traveler" (there is no title index!). But all the slow strings I've heard sound nothing like real strings, and once again I'm just being honest, not difficult. You're not going to make me believe what my ears says the opposite. I also don't understand why someone would make a fit about this! It's just my opinion, I consiser I have an excellent ear and did not feel at all uncomfortable with that comment.

here it is - the traveller by simon ravn

Ok, first of all I'd like to say it sounds great and the mix is really sweet!
Congratulation to the author.

Unfortunatelly that was not to what I was referring to at all. This type of tempo and orchestration is about the only way to have decent strings.

I am talking about A D A G I O. L---O----N----G-----N-----O----T-----E----S

Something in the style of Cavelleria Rusticana. where the strings are omnipresent, expressive, transparent, soft as well as loud keeping the intensity. That is a HUGE part of romantic film music, and it's impossible to do (at this moment) with VSL.

Do you have other examples? And I'm not being sarcastic.

Guy, obviously you have a certain expectation about _how_ a string section is supposed to sound - which is a good thing. All I can say is that there are so many examples about sweet-sounding, slow movements in our demo-library that it is hard to believe that I could point out another one that offers you a completely different point of view.

But anway: My favorite pieces would be all the slow tracks by Kuno Schmid, especially "Meditation", and the excerpt of Mahler's "Adagietto" from the 5th symphony.

-> http://vsl.co.at/en-us/67/3848/3969.vsl
-> http://vsl.co.at/en-us/67/3920/4526.vsl

But in the end, it is quite possible that you are heading for a much more processed, muffled sound, which isn't covered by these examples.

I'm starting to see that this could become a delicate issue for some, although the last reply by Dietz was ok. I'm not going to argue this any longer since my comment was not meant to become a debate but simly something constructive which I was hoping VSL could improve in the future. I don't see what's wrong with that. The last 3 excerpts suggested is once again not what I'm referring to, although they sound terrific! But I'd be kidding myself if I said the strings sounded terrific, they sounded ok but somewhat harsh to my ears, (and that is not even the slow mov. I was thinking)especially compared to real strings. If VSL is going to call it: "STRINGS" my reference will be "real strings", as simple as that. It does not mean I'm not happy with what they have achieved, I'm the first in line to get more. So back to the warmth issue, there is a lack of warmth with the strings, and to me that translate in having a cold sound. Slow strings is such an important part of film music: look at "Adagio for strings" by Samuel Barber in "The English Patient". Ok this style of music may not be everybody's cup of tea but it is mine and I wish that was possible with VSL CONSIDERING EVERYTHING ELSE IS QUITE CONVINCING, but it isn't and I've yet to hear examples of that.

@Guy said:

[...] I don't see what's wrong with that. [...]

Guy, you've got me the wrong way. I didn't say that there's something wrong with your point of view, quite on the contrary. I just tried to express my understanding that your taste is a specific one, and that you won't be convinced by _any_ of the pieces on our demo-site.

All the best,