Hey man, I feel your pain. Actually I'm dealing with almost the same problem... only in my case I had mocked up with VSL, and then I DID record real strings. And, guess what, the real strings sounded too real (go figure). So now I'm layering them back in with the samples, way down in the mix. Kills me, after blowing almost my whole package fee on getting these gorgeous recordings. Argh. But I figure, at least I can remix it for my reel later. I think that's the only way to survive without killing oneself or the client. [8-)]

Also as others on this thread have suggested, it may really be that the live sound is too distracting for underscore. Back when all there was was live sound, I guess people were used to that. Now they're used to cheap scores with samples, not programmed to the utmost either. So now they find it distracting because they notice the music. Fair enough I guess. It just kills me though. Have I mentioned that?

-Alison

@Another User said:

Still...you know she's right don't you? She is the customer...

The client is never right...
They think they are and since they are paying one must accomodate to satisfy both customer as well as oneself.

Maybe one tip:
A couple of years ago I edited a commercial for a fancy gentlemen's fashion store. I made it really nice looking, with great artwork layered on top. Classy.
They didn't like it. Within 4 'steps' I was back at the barebones beginning: not one shot was elimenated or altered, but all the artwork had to be taken out. Then they liked it, altough the result didn't 'breath' their classy-ness anymore...

Ever since then I made at least two versions of anything I do, so that the customer can choose. People like to choose. Usually they choose the best variant and they have less things to alter.

It really saves me much time after the fact.
Of course, as with anything, there are exceptions... mostly with clients who do not know what they want (and change thoughts every day) or with clients who cannot express what they want...

Good luck.

That's a great way to go about things wesll except when you barely have time to write one version... Though maybe that's a false economy if it really means they'd pick one or the other... but in my experience it's just as likely that they'll say, "hey, well, I like the drums in this one and the sax in this other one, maybe you can combine the two."

Or worse Alison,

I wrote music for ads many years ago, and more than once i'd walk in to a meeting with 2 or 3 ideas (I'm akin to Wes in this. two or three options lets them know you're serious and capable), play them, and then have the customer put their biggest competitor's ad on, and say,

'Your ideas are wonderful. We want the music to sound like this ad, ok?'

More than once the music i'd be asked to emulate was less than palatable, and the customer would come back and say,

'Their ad campaign isn't working. Can you change the music on ours, today?'

The silly part was, by the time all the panic was finished, and the dust had settled, invariably the customer would (a) take one of the original ideas, (b) end up paying twice as much, and (c) Want to know why i hadn't been more 'determined' to prevent them from making such a big mistake!

Regards to you all,

Alex.
[H]

@tcovem said:

It's just as likely that they'll say, "hey, well, I like the drums in this one and the sax in this other one, maybe you can combine the two."

If only it were that simple. More often than not they'll say something like, "I love the feeling of space you've created in the first piece, but there's a real energy about the second piece that I like a lot. Yeah, I think we need a lot more notes in there, make it busy but retain the spaciousness."

Maybe we should start a thread on real life producer's comments?

Colin

The client who doesn't know what they want until they hear it, and then they are all ideas - most of which involve much alteration of the track. Then they claim that the changes are an improvement over the original, basically demeaning all your hard work.

I did pull an old classic on this particular client a little while back. We were finding a key for a particular arrangement (she is a singer). I educatedly guessed at a key and played it for her, knowing roughly where her voice sat - let's say it was C. She wanted it higher - I didn't think it a good idea, but put it up to G! This of course was "way too high". Finally when we got back to a comfortable and effective range, we were of course back in C. AND she was reluctant to accept that C was the first key we tried.

Still - whilst the client is seldom totally right, we have to make them think they are right. Done in the correct way, one can guarantee plenty of repeat business. Who said the music business was about music?

@rawmusic said:

[...] Who said the music business was about music?

The (semi-official) subline to a friend's studio name is "Music and Diplomacy") [H]

I think it's probably right at that moment that you know just how homer simpson feels at when he grabs barts neck and starts strangling and the gagging sound bart makes sounds like a new kind of music...

@tcovem said:

It's just as likely that they'll say, "hey, well, I like the drums in this one and the sax in this other one, maybe you can combine the two."

If only it were that simple. More often than not they'll say something like, "I love the feeling of space you've created in the first piece, but there's a real energy about the second piece that I like a lot. Yeah, I think we need a lot more notes in there, make it busy but retain the spaciousness."

Maybe we should start a thread on real life producer's comments?

Colin

@rawmusic said:

Ok so I just nearly throttled a client. After about 2 hours of tweaking a track I am working on for her, with her constantly asking for this and that and the other...more horns....less scratchy strings....she comes to the conclusion she doesn't like the sound of the arrangement. Why? Because it sounds too real. She is used to my old way of doing things with MIDI modules. Now, with sounds that I can craft into a beautiful virtual ensemble, she doesn't like it.

She used to complain that my strings sounded synthetic. Now they are too real....

If she wasn't a regular customer I would be so tempted....

Hello Rawmusic,

Guess what? I'm your customer. YOU'RE FIRED!


haha! very bad joke. I know.


Seriously, to me it's alot related to the lack of warmth with the stringsin VSL which I personally find. My old sound modules weren't nearly as good but had more warmth. A real string section not only sounds real but sounds warm, and in my opinion the warmthness is as important as anything else, especially for sustained string sounds. I like to think it's because of the cold accoustic with the VSL instruments. I hope VSL is not ignoring this, because everything else about it IS so fantastic.

Guy

@Guy said:

Seriously, to me it's alot related to the lack of warmth with the stringsin VSL which I personally find. My old sound modules weren't nearly as good but had more warmth. A real string section not only sounds real but sounds warm, and in my opinion the warmthness is as important as anything else, especially for sustained string sounds. I like to think it's because of the cold accoustic with the VSL instruments. I hope VSL is not ignoring this, because everything else about it IS so fantastic.
Guy

Just read this and had to come in here. This has been discussed many, many times regarding string sounds - there isn't a string library currently available that is able to do that to be fair. It's not really to do with accoustics in my view - it's more to do with string samples being almost tweaked to perfection - in other words, almost too perfect.

To get the sound you are referring to when simply playing a string patch is a wish everyone who writes using strings, has absolutely top of the sampling agenda probably.

How this will come about technologically I have no idea - currently layering is OK - but won't really cut it in terms of what you hear when you watch a performance of some symphony on TV.

@hermitage59 said:

Or worse Alison,

I wrote music for ads many years ago, and more than once i'd walk in to a meeting with 2 or 3 ideas (I'm akin to Wes in this. two or three options lets them know you're serious and capable), play them, and then have the customer put their biggest competitor's ad on, and say,

'Your ideas are wonderful. We want the music to sound like this ad, ok?'

[H]

The thing is with ads, you're writing 30-60 seconds of music, so you can do 2+ versions usually, or even be one of several composers from a music house each contributing 2+ demos so the client has 6 or whatever options. With a 90 minute TV special, or film, or whatever, you can't write 2 versions of each cue, more's the pity.

Remind me again why any of us are in this profession?

Ok, I should be more specific, I find that all VSL instruments tends toward coldness, but the ones who suffers the most are the strings. But I agree with you Paul, other important factors could be at the source of this problem. But the bottom line is reaching "close" to the warmth of real strings. Vibrato for example is nearly impossible to match; a violinist who's been doing this all his life, not one note has the same vibrato, expression, etc. and even if you do it youself: pitchwheel or other, your ability to do a perfect vibtato is unlikely. That's the difference between an average violinist and a good violinist, the latter will obtain much more warmth. If anybody has good tricks for that I'd like to hear from them, I know I've had many challenges in that regard. But to be realistic, with all the variants possible with the violin, all contributing to having more warmth we would probably need the entire total VSL memory for the strings alone!

Guy

The other possibility, of course, is that the client was absolutely right and it DID sound too real! Sometimes a synthy string sound is right and sampled strings are totally wrong. Obviously I'm not talking about orchestral music, but for instance a lot of older hip-hop would sound laughable with VSL strings instead of Casio.

I'm one of the unfortunate few who missed out on the delights of casio.

But as heavy and unweildy as it was, i still miss the fairlight. Ahead of its time in many ways.

Regards,


Alex


[H]

@Nick Batzdorf said:

The other possibility, of course, is that the client was absolutely right and it DID sound too real! Sometimes a synthy string sound is right and sampled strings are totally wrong. Obviously I'm not talking about orchestral music, but for instance a lot of older hip-hop would sound laughable with VSL strings instead of Casio.

But in that case wouldn't we be talking more of a pad? Of course there are 20 million pads, but some resemble strings without that classical sound: You know, that thick luscious pad...

In this case, just for the record, the arrangement was of "If I Loved You" from Carousel, and was intended to sound orchestral. I guess she just needs time to adjust and to let her ears become accustomed to hearing real sounds, just like I needed to.

@Guy said:

Ok, I should be more specific, I find that all VSL instruments tends toward coldness, but the ones who suffers the most are the strings. But I agree with you Paul, other important factors could be at the source of this problem. But the bottom line is reaching "close" to the warmth of real strings. Vibrato for example is nearly impossible to match; a violinist who's been doing this all his life, not one note has the same vibrato, expression, etc. and even if you do it youself: pitchwheel or other, your ability to do a perfect vibtato is unlikely. That's the difference between an average violinist and a good violinist, the latter will obtain much more warmth. If anybody has good tricks for that I'd like to hear from them, I know I've had many challenges in that regard. Guy

Don't worry - most of the members of forums and buyers of ANY string library know exactly what you mean. I remember watching a TV concert of a Russian orchestra recently playing a selection of Tchaikovsky - to get that string sound - and we're talking extremes here - is nigh impossible with samples at the moment I would guess. There aren't really any tricks that I know of to get the sound you and everyone else wants at this time.

Just so as there's no confusion - it's actual sound we're talking about here - as opposed to the so-called 'hollywood sound' which is an entirely different thing and is all to do with writing and orchestration.

Oh well, Raw, it was just a theory. [:)]

You're right, the client's a moron.

But in all honesty, there are times to let the client win and times when you're losing integrity by not putting your foot down - such as when the client is being objectively moronic. People don't respect a lousy attitude, but they do respect integrity in my experience.

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