I've heard more than one of Mr Gerber's orchestral pieces. He's pretty freaking good, and his virtual orchestration is extremely well made and sounds utterly convincing. I don't personally think one is doing one's self any favors talking smack on a personal level (William)

Civilization 3, I reckon it's best if we just agree to disagree. I'm pretty much all talked out on on this thread - sorry about that.. It's all opinion, after all.

@Macker said:

"Colleagues" in what sense? I'm not aware of any formally structured organisation that I joined by becoming a member of this open forum. Yes we're all customers of VSL, but in my opinion that hardly constitutes us becoming "colleagues".

The way you're writing comports well with having never heard it.
No, we wouldn't literally be colleagues, thanks for 'splainin

It's the spirit of the thing. 

I'm going to step away from this, there's no percentage in explaining it to one that doesn't see it or why a spirit of collegiality (or even feigning so) is preferable in discourse to forming enemies to no gain.

William, NPD = Narcissistic Personality Disorder, as defined in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5). But in this case I think New Product Developer serves just as well, lolol. (Sorry, being a bit slow tonight. I need a nap - about 8 hours should do the trick, lol.)

Interesting bit of background on Mr Gerber. Teething biscuits indeed. Well I'm sure it's tremendously valuable in helping Mr Gerber to compose. And I suppose he's the only one in any position to explain how it helps, because yes, after all, he proclaims that he is "a real composer".

Well one lives and learns. Making baby teething biccies is his actual livelihood, uh? Who knew? Of course as he has pointed out, I'm in no way permitted to make any comments or have any opinions on "real composers" and "real composing", so I'll just happily rest in the safe belief that baby teething biscuit manufacturing probably ought to be promoted as an essential part of "real composing"!

Lolol.

civilization3 - talking smack??? Excellent!  By all means!  

Macker,  ah, narcissists - yes, very appropriate on this thread, especially with the "real composers." 

I am NOT a real composer.  I am an unreal composer. That is something I've always tried to be and am glad, I've succeeded. Yes, we strive for certain things in life and unreality is one I've accomplished.   Especially since I am a follower of surrealism, and believe that the unconscious mind needs to overthrow reality.  One day, it will happen!    

Ahh, Gianna! You took me back... All those years ago, when we were young and hopeful, and "tore" at each other while Hans shed tears of laughter over this, counting his money...

I wasn't going to comment but it will also serve as a segue to my response to Dewdman42's points on Mozart and electronics. By the way, collegiality goes both ways. Just because I laugh at Hans as a composer - at least his school of film composition of the last, I don't know, 20 odd years (although I thought The Last Samurai was not bad), it doesn't mean that I am biased... I don't know the man personally. I just respond to his "philosophy" and musical choices for films he has scored and that I have seen.

I said it when it was pertinent, and I say it again now, that what Hans did with the cello for the Joker could only impress someone with only the most superficial understanding of synthesis.  As an idea for characterisation for the film, you can take it or leave it. But to call it a 'brilliant' example of synthesis is simply a joke. Which is apt if you think about it.

But how can you like Superman? It's one of his worst! The poster example of what not to do! I remember the scene where Superman first discovers his ability to fly. He bursts into the sky exhilarated and soars over creation. How does Hans 'serve this scene'? Dukudaka-dukudaka-dukudaka-dukudaka and in the minor!!! That's all he can muster, the one trick limping pony.

This brings me to Dewdman42: You seem pretty confident about what Mozart would do were he alive today. I am not so certain. Most of the orchestral Composers alive today are pretty happy composing solely for acoustic forces (including orchestra). Very-very few of them also compose electronic music. Even fewer compose for film. And while you and Anand agreed on the orchestra's potential as far as timbral possibilities are concerned, I am going to concede that electronic music has the greater range in that regard.

But not the electronic music that you are talking about (I am guessing). Certainly not the kind that people like Cliff Martinez, Aphex Twin, or Hans are offering, and not that they should or are bad at what they do - the first two.

If you are genuinely interested in the cutting edge of what pioneering electronic music sounds like, I suggest you dive into the realm of academic computer music. Imagine music that doesn't start with a sequencer or a sampler like, say, Omnisphere. Electronic music with no beat. No ostinato. Imagine hitherto unimagined sounds that you create from scratch(!) without sampling(!!), by way of computer programming. Algorithmic or other. No music keyboard during composition, no sampled acoustic instruments like the VSL (heavily frowned upon, you should make your own instrumental samples - if you must, and then only to render them completely unrecognisable). Then examine possible, very complex structures and sonic manipulations, determined or indeterminate, that can be implemented though algorithmic programming, synthesis, etc.

jsg: Your article really took me back... I got my DX7 in 1984. I was a kid then, my parents could afford the latest (OK, not the Synclavier), so I got it. I knew nothing about synthesis then - you could make a point that it was wasted on me but, through playing those sounds, my compositional thoughts grew deeper, more acute.

In that same article you suggest that if no live players are ever going to perform an orchestral work, why does it have to be confined to what's possible and written down professionally, or words to that effect. I can't think of a reason either. However, that takes us immediately away from the realm of orchestral composition, and into the realm of computer composition, exclusively. I perceive such works purely as computer music works, and not as orchestral works; not even in potentia! One composes for orchestra or one doesn't (even if it is a hybrid score). A free-composed quasi-simulation of the sonorities of instruments existing in the physical world, one that does not take on account all their physical properties, qualities, and limitations, is not a composition for said instruments. The staves on the score may just as well read 'Instrument 1', 'Instrument 2' etc., instead of 'Flute', 'Oboe' etc.

I never said that a composer must by definition be either/or in my post, but I can see how you could infer that from my strong positions. Of course, anyone can be an acoustic as well as computer music composer. He can be a gynaecologist! Like Borodin. My point was that it is one thing to claim professionalism (in all its facets!) for oneself - in multiple musical disciplines to boot - and another to be recognised as such by others. I proffered my own standards for professionalism, others may have their own. Borodin certainly was recognised by top professionals in both fields.

Macker: What was that Rosana thing about? As soon as I heard a few seconds of that awful rendition, the uploader - whoever he was - removed it...

@Another User said:

Macker: What was that Rosana thing about? As soon as I heard a few seconds of that awful rendition, the uploader - whoever he was - removed it...

As usual Macker was trying to attack me.  That was a script that I wrote to perform midi sequences in Apple MainStage, a feature that is not built in.  I downloaded a std midi file of Rosanna, I did not not make the midi file; merely to have a proof of concept that the script worked.  It has no relevance to this thread whatsoever other than Macker is intent on finding ways to ridicule me and embarrass me in any way possible...I have no idea why...I don't know who he is...but he has been obsessed with attacking me for several months now.  But he seems to do that to other people too...so whatever.

Dewdman42: I really don't know where to begin, so I'll just say this: I didn't miss your point at all. You missed all of mine... For just one example, orchestral composers alive today are very much aware of the possibilities that electronic music has to offer and still most stay away from it. By extension, I guess that Mozart might have done so also.

However, I didn't realise that your familiarity with electronic music more or less extended to what Hans did in Dune. In that case, and by comparison, the orchestra has -by very far- the larger acoustic palette.

@Another User said:

In that case, and by comparison, the orchestra has -by very far- the larger acoustic palette.

In  your last post you said the opposite.  And I agree with that last post.  The symphony orchestra does absolutely NOT have the wider sonic palette.   What it has is a tremendous organic quality that is very difficult to obtain, currently, with electronic instruments.  What it has is a large scale group performance aspect that is also very hard to get from electronic instrumentation.  it also has a "tradition", which is not to be under-estimated.

@Errikos said:

My point was that it is one thing to claim professionalism (in all its facets!) for oneself - in multiple musical disciplines to boot - and another to be recognised as such by others. I proffered my own standards for professionalism, others may have their own.

Strictly speaking, this is bogus.  "Professional" means: paid to do it.  That's it.  The are professionals with poor skills and professionals with top level elite skills...and a huge range in between...but there is no standard whatsoever to dictate that some certain skillset or level of skill is what deems someone to be a "professional".

Your favorite composer Hans Zimmer is a professional, regardless of whether he has or doesn't have the same kinds of skills as the esteemed orchestral composers you have referred to.

Being considered a professional musician doesn't prove a single thing, other then someone was willing to pay you for whatever you do.

What amuses me Dewdman is that you keep contradicting yourself by saying how electronic sounds offer a 'wider palette' but yet acknowledging that you haven't listened to or care about 20th century music, including the electronic music Errikos is referring to, which by themselves offer a WAAAAYYY wider palette than anything Zimmer or the other drone lords can conjure up.

Its like someone offering a new type of cooking with new and exotic kind of tastes and flavors, without ever having tasted most of the worlds cuisines, refusing to do so and even claiming that 'traditional' cuisines have a limited range of flavors!

Keep going...I am enjoying it.

Anand

   @Macker...Apologies for dragging up an old thread, but did you progress any further with your orchestral intonation subsystem for LogicPro? It sounds like a good idea and has piqued my interest.

@Macker said:

.......... I certainly do plan to put out some mockups of a few famous works to demonstrate my orchestral intonation subsystem for Logic Pro, but that's another story..........

Mike, many thanks for expressing your interest in my "Situater" orchestral intonation subsystem for Logic Pro.

It's currently undergoing yet another major redesign - this time in order to implement a feature I've wanted for many years; plus I'm now centralising realtime management for the whole subsystem.

Unfortunately, Apple's enthusiastic but somewhat too impetuous updates of Logic between 10.5 and 10.7.7 left the Environment with too much damage for Situater to operate properly. So I've been pretty much ignoring Situater's development during that time.

Recently however, Apple seems to have had an "Ableton moment" and made a big and determined effort to put Logic back into a fit and healthy state - 10.7.8 bearing the splendid results. (They've even fixed the Transformer's broken 14-bit arithmetic I've been nagging them about for years!) So I'm happily hands-on again.

Please bear in mind I'm retired. Getting Situater fit for public use is taking a lot of time. But I'm making progress, slowly but surely. Sorry I can't give you an ETA.

No worries Macker. Make sure you let the us know if it ever comes to fruition. More importantly, enjoy retirement ...🙂