To Rawmusic -

I couldn't agree more. Reverb and mixing is the icing, not the cake (... take this from an aging mixing-engineer! [+o(] )

.... although this is not necessarily true for pop-music, too! [H]

Hear hear.

I often tweak the lines with the reverb bypassed. The assumption is, if it sounds realistic without a reverb, it'll sound realistic with it - hopefully more so. There is definitely a temptation to drown everything in reverb so that you cannot hear the unevenness of the articulations, but this is not bright; it takes you down a path you cannot easily back out of.

And you can't polish a turd. Little bits keep breaking off.

Feh. I say smother it in reverb.

[6]

those inxeperinced in ENG techniques can waste alot of time
dealing with reverb issues. i found my self getting caught into this a few times. very true, a good piece of music allways comes down to what notes and instrumenst and why. what makes VSL so incredible is the flexibility and the attention to the fundamentals.

Hehe, I love the title of this post .. reminds me of where I first heard the saying .. (In John Carpenters : Christine)

I agree entirely. Bad composition just can't be hidden no matter what you use. However I'd have to say that personally the VSL did NOT come alive until after I found the right reverb. The untreated sound was and is just horrible for the type of orchestration that I write.

Put the correct room reverb on and bingo .. VSL purrs like a kitten.

I stand by my preset for composing music. It gives just the right hint of the 'hoolywood movie' sound, but I need to work on space designer to come up a more advanced verb

@rawmusic said:

What I got was a gently ambient, very up close, detailed and vibrant sound that I really quite liked.....Personally I prefer a cotton T-shirt and jogging pants!

Strange...I've never achieved a great reverb using a cotton T-shirt and jogging pants...I always felt they dampened the effect if anything! [:D]

Colin

I love the subject of this thread! One of the composers I used to orchestrate for described some of my work as exactly this...!

In many ways I agree with you, but unfortunately much of the pop industry flies in the face of these sentiments [:'(]

DG

There is a saying among organists (think pipes, not hammond) that the most important sound, or stop, on the organ is the room, obviously speaking of reverb. Beyond the obvious though, it speaks to a performer's awareness of how to use the room to an advantage, which implies real time association with, rather than simple application of, reverb. When laying down parts, it helps use the room as an instrumentalist would (that's where they play after all). In most circumstances that translates to getting out of the way and letting the room take over. If the reverb isn't there, there's no way of knowing what's really going to happen. Applying it after the fact is another pitfall for the same reason. A muddy wall of sound, verses the sensitivity that each performer works with to maintain clarity and light. This was really a difficult concept for me to get down, and took close to ten years, so if it doesn't immediately make sense, don't worry; it will. It ultimately happened as more of a feeling or intuition, but it started by focusing on what I wasn't hearing. In other words, if this interests you at all, have some fun and try listening to a recording, maybe a solo one to start with, and listen for what the performer ISN'T playing, especially the space between notes and phrases, and for the musical elegance of "tossing a note away" so the room can take it.

Good point Martin. Don't forget though, at this level of thinking, placement in the room is also important, as well as listener position. i know there are a few reverbs that allow you to alter such parameters. Also, we are talking about a real performer with a real instrument, rather than clever people behind computers who really need to hear exactly what they just played in to ensure it is correct, rather than a lovely "tail" on a thrown away note. In this case, I am more likely to look for notes to throw away because I have the wrong staccato - something difficult to tell always when seduced by reverb.

Many real life issues can't be used in computer generated music - not yet. The fundamental elements of VSL are mechanical in terms of how we apply them. In the future.....mmm...

And what do organists know anyway - they are only bad pianists [:)]

Martin that's one of the most insightful comments I've read anywhere... I play organ, or did, and I hadn't thought of it that way in terms of sequencing, but I think you're right on. Hmm! Have to rethink my workflow.

I've had some success by using audience recordings in audio to supplement the reverb. For example, in choral work, I use the Larry Seyer digital church which is pretty good. However, once I add in a carefully constructed audio track of an audience, it makes the music come alive. Hearing an orchestra or choir breakthrough the shufflings and coughing makes for a convincing atmosphere and it fools most listeners. You can create your audience from (non-copyrighted) source CD material, or else record the audience yourself. A few cunningly placed coughs in the quiet passages also serves to further dupe your listeners. OK, so it's shameless cheating, but all we are essentially doing with sampled music is pasting together pieces of a mosaic. However, adding on applause at the end is exceedingly vain, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it [:)]

I think it's BelaD that offers free samples of performance noise: chair squeaks, breathing, etc. More useful for listening to the piece on CD though than for scoring to any kind of media.

Rawmusic,

Alot have been already said on the subject, but I go along with the responses. But just to add, when I began working with VSL my co-worker would EQ it, add all kind of reverbs using sophisticated plug-ins, and we'd hope for the best. 2 years later, through interpretation improvments, although I am already a competant pianist but now am able to hear better the instrument I'm playing making it sound 100 times better, also using more and the correct articulations as said, so now when comes mixing time with my co-worker I get so nervous that he will add something when it doesn't needed it anymore, and it already sounds great! A bit a salt and pepper might do.

Guy

I agree that salt and pepper can help, but after having spent on average 20-25 hours a week with my Logic VSL setup since I bought it in June i am still playing with eq's on solo instruments, multi reverb setups etc. etc. I am overly fastidious with articulations, to the point where projects sometimes become less economically viable than a long shift at MacDonalds. I shall continue to strive for the best I can achieve. I just need to re-educate those people who had got used to the best I was able to create using MIDI modules.

She is coming over again very soon night to pick up an orchestral track from Die Fledermaus. If I have the energy after this, I shall post and report on her comments to an entirely VSL derived arrangement. I am anticipating requests for padding the strings with my trusty JV1080 strings, and to turn down all the woodwind, because it sounds too "piercing" (her words). Oh well, as long as she has her chequebook! Actually, I do like her very much, and if she thought I was slating her like this, she would come after me with a shotgun!

Rawmusic,

You just bought it in June? Did you have previous experiences with VSL before? I can't speak for others but it took me a good year to fully appreciate the potential of the VSL, and only then was I and the others really impressed with what I was writing. THE VSL IS REALLY AN ASSEMBLING KIT, and once you've stored as many articulations as possible in your head, only then are you in measure of working quickly and effeciently in assembling your work. Mind you I could be slower than other people but that's my experience and it works well.

Never-the-less, I did score a film during that first year with VSL,and the reviews were very good, but had I wished for the experience I have now with it! I'm certainly not saying that everybody should wait a whole year before using it for jobs, but the expectations early on should not be too high due to the nature of this software.

Guy

I guess I am just impatient! I need to be able to do things yesterday and lose interest if I can't. Within, I would say, a week I was properly up and running, but like I say, things get better the more I do. I had viewed all of the online vids and read most of the tutorials before I even ordered the product. I wanted to make sure I wouldn't be getting frustrated at the interruptions to workflow caused by tech issues.

I'm convinced your work sounded good and that lady is a nut. But just to clarify my point: The great thing about VSL is that nobody can say how far you could go, contrairy to other similar products.

Guy