@PaoloT said:

But how to do with Synchron libraries? Microphone gives a clear placement in the L-R axis, and in the High-Low one. But what about the Front-Rear axis? How to control it? Is it just a matter of making the distance information contained in the room mics (in particular the Tree) more evident? Could the Close and Distant etc. Mix Presets help, and be mixed at the same time for different sections?

paging @Dietz for ideas on this...

I don't have absolute answer about this, but can only offer my own thoughts FWIW..  I think this is difficult task with Synchron libraries.  It is a clear argument for favoring VI and Synchronized libs if you intend to do non-standard things like that.  

The whole point of Synchron is to use the room they were recorded in.  You can use the close mics and affect things more, but then you're losing the room.  If you bring in the room there will be lots of ER and distance information coming from those mics.

In addition to what you and Macker have said about various things like the width and volume.. I would add that proximity-effect can add a feeling of something being closer or further away.  In MirPro that is the "distance" parameter.   There are other freeware FX you could mess around with to see if they will basically EQ the sound a certain way to make it sound closer (warmer), or further away.  I don't have much experience with them, so I'm just throwing it out there for you to try out and let us know.

https://www.tokyodawn.net/proximity/

https://www.auburnsounds.com/products/Panagement.html

Try subtle settings.  nice thing about these is that you can more directly affect the proximity aspect without messing with ER's and width.

 MirPro of course is also worth a try with very subtle settings.

And there is always just using an EQ to make a sound seem further away.

I would not mess with ER's at all to achieve anything related to changing stage depth, unless you use only the close mics in Synchron.  However, ironically, ER's probably actually have the biggest impact on how far back something sounds like.  So...  in a way...with Synchron you're probably barking up the wrong tree to mess with it...but.....  Just my thoughts, I have no experience trying this.

I would be very interested to hear what Dietz would have to say about any of this.

dewdman, you speak of these technical matters authoritatively, as if from your own knowledge, understanding and experience. I'm all for learning from someone else's understanding and experience, but you only hint and imply that you have these things, without actually imparting any of it. I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting to benefit from some actual elucidation from you.

You mention the "proximity effect." Please explain how this is relevant to Synchron libraries.

You identify 2 plugins (both of which I have, and have trialed fairly extensively). You say you "don't have much experience with them", but also say, as if you do actually have understanding and experience of them: "Try subtle settings. Nice thing about these is that you can more directly affect the proximity aspect without messing with ERs and width". Does that mean, for example, don't use the "Proximity" plugin's main fader to render a calibrated difference of distance but use it subtly instead? And do you mean that Proximity's "Width" parameter should be disengaged, and why? Please elucidate by giving us the benefit of your own understanding of these 2 plugins.

You seem to be concerned about ER. Please explain the role of ER in Synchron libraries and why it's of concern in this context.

You say, "And there is always just using EQ to make things seem further away." What principle does this involve, and how does that principle translate into making actual EQ settings to affect distance? Please elucidate.

@Dewdman42 said:

[...] I would be very interested to hear what Dietz would have to say about any of this.

This is my personal opinion as a sound engineer and music producer, not an "official" VSL statement: Synchron Instruments were made to be used in situ, in the specific positions in that very specific hall where they were recorded. For free placement on a virtual stage use Vienna Instruments.

Still keenly anticipating your own elucidations of your remarks, dewdman.

@Helmholtz said:

Stillkeenly anticipatingyour own elucidations of your remarks, dewdman.

dewdman, I notice you still haven't elucidated on any of your advice which appears to have been aimed at helping Paolo with his specific objectives as stated in his thread here. So do you stand by your advice or withdraw it? If the former, that would leave a bit of a mess to be cleared up, sorting the wheat from the chaff as well as the outright nonsense; but someone else will have to take care of that, right?

I notice also you've gone way off topic.

I do hope, for Paolo's sake and for others who might be interested in what Paolo is trying to achieve here, that this thread can now proceed without being sidetracked any further.

dewdman your answer means the advice you gave to Paolo no longer stands. Good. Now perhaps this thread might proceed without you sidetraacking it any further.

In general, if you go back and change one of your previous posts to contain new information, I will probably not go back to read it.  Its one thing to update a previous post to fix grammar or spelling mistakes, but if you change what you said, or add to what you said...its already history and I do not make a habit of going back to re-read the threads over and over to find whatever new questions you have placed in an old post.  

I see now that you have added some specific questions to an older post...so I will try to address some of them.

There is no effort on my part to side track or derail this thread at all..  Nor have I said anything off topic.  Your questions seem to have a combative tone towards me, so I may pick and choose what I will respond to in that case.

@Another User said:

You say, "And there is always just using EQ to make things seem further away." What principle does this involve, and how does that principle translate into making actual EQ settings to affect distance? Please elucidate.

Frequency content changes over distance differently across the spectrum.  That is what I meant by "proximity effect" earlier.  By the same virtue, you can use EQ to change the spectrum, which can have an impact on perceived distance.  Here is a video on you tube I just quickly googled for and you can find many more on this topic.

Props to Helmholtz.

But oh dear, it seems we have some cleaning up to do now. 

No worries Macker. I've got this - but of course do chime in if something takes your fancy. I slipped up once, and we have a googled answer as a result. But as it turns out, it helps with the job at hand, Lol.

dewdman, oh hey I was beginning to miss your speciality. But now we have a lovely bit of projection here from the one whose posts change with the wind - oh yes I've seen you do it to cover your backside time and time again. Give me one example of me editing one of my posts that constitutes downright dishonesty and cheating, and I will apologise. That's your trick, sunshine, not mine.

Right oh, some more engineering 101, to counter the harm of dewdman's fake news.

Proximity effect. You really should have googled that one, dewdman. It refers to a property of most microphones whereby very close sources tend to elicit an enhanced response at lower frequencies, compared to the mic's frequency response to the same source at much greater distances. It could perhaps be more properly called the "close proximity" effect, since it becomes noticeable within about a metre or so between source and mic.

I'm willing to be wrong but I very much doubt if any of VSL's sample recordings have ever deliberately invoked the proximity effect. Otherwise mixing with VSL sample libraries would include the ever-present chore of EQing out the proximity effect on instruments that are to be placed farther back than right in your face!

The "Proximity" plugin that I assume you found in your random googling (as if Paolo can't google for himself) has a facility for EQing in or out the actual proximity effect of a typical microphone, but this of course has nothing to do with making a distinction between 10 metres and 15 metres, for example.

And you say this is the same as the other EQ-distance effect that I carefully questioned; i.e. the HF absorption of air (now you can google ISO 9631-1), which plays very little if any significant part in distinguishing differences between player positions on stage.

Tut tut. A big bit of noob confusion there by you, methinks. And yet you still make it sound as if you know what you're talking about, and that can cause untold mischief and confusion amongst non-technical music makers who all too often just accept what they're told to do about the technical stuff. They need to be protected from fake news merchants out just to make a name for themselves by any means, fair or foul.

ER content. You haven't explained how this "places the instruments on stage". Let's hear your understanding of this first.

And no dewdman, I've learnt the hard way. I'm not trusting you by giving you info up front. You ask to borrow my watch then turn round and tell me the time. It's an old management consultancy trick from the days when being a management consultant was for some a license to print money and win fame and fortune. And these 101s do come at a big price, dewdman. as you will discover.

Just for good measure, without meaning anyone personally: Can everyone please stick to a kind, benevolent and light tone here? Thank you.

Regarding the use of the word "proximity",  I am dearly sorry for using it, since it has apparently caused such a controversy.  I didn't realize the terminology-police would come after me with such a vengeance. I believe I have already explained what I meant several times, and it has nothing to do with microphones in this case.  I was simply meaning to refer to changes of frequency that occur over distance.  Sorry for any confusion this may have caused.  

@Dietz:  Is "EQ-distance" the politically correct safe term to use for this?

I think it can definitely affect distance perception, but its also true that ER's are so overwhelmingly powerful in giving our ears distance cues...that its quite possible that in the case of Synchron instruments it would make very little difference to try to change the distance using EQ.  It's just something to try.  And to repeat for the 3rd or 4th time, I am still of the opinion that Synchron Instruments are not meant to be used this way, they are placed on stage and if you want to play with stage placement...better to use VI/Synchronized.

Regarding ER: ER = Early Reflections.  I'm pretty sure Paolo knew that already and knows a lot about how ER affects perception of depth.  There are many freely available resources on the internet that already discuss how and why Early Reflections affect the perception depth on stage in certain venues.  it is not necessary for me to explain it, nor do I need to prove myself.  I don't know why I'm being raked over the coals for offering a simple suggestion. 

As I said already in earlier post, I do NOT recommend messing around with adding new ER's to Synchron instrument sounds...

regards

Anyone from time to time might make a fool of themself by asserting stuff they really don't know about or have misunderstood. That's generally accepted as part of being human. And if called out on such an occasion, most people are willing to see their mistake or misunderstanding, and perhaps laugh about it, or make an apology, or even blush and fart and rush off in tears. A few might try to dig themselves in deeper, which doesn't usually end well for them. And even fewer might have a marked tendency to double down, and use various kinds of trolling, lying, projecting, gaslighting, ghosting, smearing, pity plays, triangulation, and other nefarious techniques to try to negate the calling out and to defame whoever did the calling out. Only in this last case is there likely to be damage done to the general integrity and wellbeing of social intercourse, and so sometimes it calls for handling of the sterner kind.

I'm speaking hypothetically. It's just a story. What could possibly go wrong in connection with "kind, benevolent and light" discussion of technical matters in a forum that is accustomed to dealing with technical matters? Because after all, we have centuries of modern empirical science and technology to call upon in order to find the truth, and to sort fact from fiction, don't we?

And there I will leave it for others to judge. I'm simply a guest in this revered forum.

Déjà vu much Paolo? Lolol. I'll leave you to it.

Oh BTW, I'm getting good results messsing with ERs. Why not give it a go in your rig?

I'm probably starting to get the grip on multimic mixing. It's interesting to see how I was never interested to detailed mixing with the other multimic libraries I own. With Synchron libraries, the idea of dealing with a real orchestra has become stronger.

If I understand (and hear) correctly, room mics always give the actual position of the instruments. A mix containing only room microphones would be like a photo of the instruments on stage.

Where you start moving things around is with mid and close mics. Making them more present in the mix makes the instruments come closer. Making them softer makes the instrument go farther.

Mic delay and algorithmic reverb does the rest, adding a sense of distance that can be accurately calculated by milliseconds and meters.

Paolo